dakor
Well-Known Member
MontanaRifleman
7mm Rem Mag
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MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
MontanaRifleman
Take a couple of Asprin and a couple of Sominex. Everything will be just fine in the morning
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Oh boy, now we are in to wildcats...I'll get the popcorn
Seriously though, if we could spend this much time and anger with our politicians, we probably wouldn't have to worry about any of these gun laws coming to fruition! Just another of my basic thoughts, hahaha
You ain't lying! I said my piece, and I stopped posting on this thread. Glad I did when I did. Crap hit the fan on here. LOL
gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen, take'r easy. sorry about unburrying the hatchet here. I appreciate all your opinions. 1- im not worried about recoil. ive shot both the calibers of topic and and recoil doesnt bother me. however im adressing the recoil factor as per LR accuracy. if it is a matter of increasing accuracy by braking a .300 than i would consider it but if i can get away without braking a 7mag (which im sure i can) than it would be money saved as this rifle/scope will not be cheap... 2- what about the BC of the 7mag vs. .300? Even links to articles in this thread have proved that the numbers (at least from what i can understand) are very similar, not "the same" because they are not in fact exactly "the same" but about as close to "the same" as it gets. From what ive gathered the .300 has a slight advantage but i believe "splitting hairs" was the general consensus at some point...
p.s.
Agreed that a slight advantage is in fact an advantage and maybe that is the answer to my conundrum...haha
p.s.
Agreed that a slight advantage is in fact an advantage and maybe that is the answer to my conundrum...haha
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
southpa,
The ballistics between the 7 and the 300 are basically identical. If we compare apples to apples, i.e., 180 hybrid to 215 hybrid to reasonably expected muzzle velocities, admittedly on the upper end, this is what you get (per post 11)
7mm RM 180 Hybrid, G7 BC .345, MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1756, KE 1232, 5 MPH wind 4.5 MOA
300 WM 215 Hybrid. G7 BC .356. MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1788, KE 1526, 5 MPH wind 4.4 MOA
The performance advantage of the 300 is it delivers a significantly larger bullet down range. Not a huge deal for smaller game, but for elk it's definitely an advantage.
As for the value of a brake, more pleasant shooting, ability to site hits and misses (a big deal in LR) and most will say increased accuracy. None of my rifles currently carry brakes but I have 2 in the works that will be cause of what I have learned here and actually shooting some with brakes. If you look at the pics of LR rifles on this site you will see probably more than 90% are equipped with brakes, there's a reason for that. Check out Kirby's gun porn thread. If you ask the experienced LR smiths and shooters about it, they will all steer you to a brake.
If you're serious about 1000 yd shooting of game, especially elk category, you might consider a larger Sendero cartridge like a RUM, especially if you decide to go with a brake. It will give you an edge over the 300 WM.
The ballistics between the 7 and the 300 are basically identical. If we compare apples to apples, i.e., 180 hybrid to 215 hybrid to reasonably expected muzzle velocities, admittedly on the upper end, this is what you get (per post 11)
7mm RM 180 Hybrid, G7 BC .345, MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1756, KE 1232, 5 MPH wind 4.5 MOA
300 WM 215 Hybrid. G7 BC .356. MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1788, KE 1526, 5 MPH wind 4.4 MOA
The performance advantage of the 300 is it delivers a significantly larger bullet down range. Not a huge deal for smaller game, but for elk it's definitely an advantage.
As for the value of a brake, more pleasant shooting, ability to site hits and misses (a big deal in LR) and most will say increased accuracy. None of my rifles currently carry brakes but I have 2 in the works that will be cause of what I have learned here and actually shooting some with brakes. If you look at the pics of LR rifles on this site you will see probably more than 90% are equipped with brakes, there's a reason for that. Check out Kirby's gun porn thread. If you ask the experienced LR smiths and shooters about it, they will all steer you to a brake.
If you're serious about 1000 yd shooting of game, especially elk category, you might consider a larger Sendero cartridge like a RUM, especially if you decide to go with a brake. It will give you an edge over the 300 WM.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I WAS done, but I just have to post this, b/c of how stupid and off-topic this thread has gotten.
I want to appologise to the OP, for having a part in ruining his thread.
Elk must be quite hardcore beasts for you to need such a large bullet.
I guess the local outdoors store owner is a $100+ millionaire idiot.....He took a record elk a few years back at 647 yards with a custom built Rem 700 chambered in .257 Wby Mag with a 110gr Accubond. Man, he must have barely killed that thing, since you need 300gr SMK from a .338 Lapua to kill one beyond 750 yards....
And with that one, I'm out.
Also, you have been contradicting yourself again....In 2 different sentences you went from saying 7mm and 300 are "basically identical", then once you posted some sort data, you claim the 300 is "significantly larger", despite a, less than, 300 lbs of KE difference at 700 yards, and less than 25 fps difference...
Oh, and also, I'm pretty sure you told me specifically that KE didn't mean squat, but a few pages later, you used it as an arguement as to why the 300 is better.
And Dakor was right, it sure appears that you have 0 experience with ANY of this stuff. Anyone can quote data they find on the internet...
We've called your bluff.
I want to appologise to the OP, for having a part in ruining his thread.
Elk must be quite hardcore beasts for you to need such a large bullet.
I guess the local outdoors store owner is a $100+ millionaire idiot.....He took a record elk a few years back at 647 yards with a custom built Rem 700 chambered in .257 Wby Mag with a 110gr Accubond. Man, he must have barely killed that thing, since you need 300gr SMK from a .338 Lapua to kill one beyond 750 yards....
And with that one, I'm out.
Also, you have been contradicting yourself again....In 2 different sentences you went from saying 7mm and 300 are "basically identical", then once you posted some sort data, you claim the 300 is "significantly larger", despite a, less than, 300 lbs of KE difference at 700 yards, and less than 25 fps difference...
Oh, and also, I'm pretty sure you told me specifically that KE didn't mean squat, but a few pages later, you used it as an arguement as to why the 300 is better.
And Dakor was right, it sure appears that you have 0 experience with ANY of this stuff. Anyone can quote data they find on the internet...
We've called your bluff.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
I WAS done, but I just have to post this, b/c of how stupid and off-topic this thread has gotten.
I want to appologise to the OP, for having a part in ruining his thread.
Elk must be quite hardcore beasts for you to need such a large bullet.
I guess the local outdoors store owner is a $100+ millionaire idiot.....He took a record elk a few years back at 647 yards with a custom built Rem 700 chambered in .257 Wby Mag with a 110gr Accubond. Man, he must have barely killed that thing, since you need 300gr SMK from a .338 Lapua to kill one beyond 750 yards....
And with that one, I'm out.
Well.... almost out
Here we have another reading comprehension problem. I said the BALLISTICS was basically identical and THE DIFFERENCE was the SIZE of BULLET.
Nope. Never said it didn't mean squat. Reading problems again. I said KE wasn't all there was to the killing factor.
Are you going to say that a 7mm 180 gr bullet is going to kill as well as a 308 215 grain bullet at the same velocity?
I see your call and raise you a box of 215 hybrids
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Yes, I will say that, b/c dead is dead. You can't get more or less dead, once you are dead. .17 caliber bullet can kill you just as dead as a .50 caliber. Only difference is wound cavity and entrance and exit wound. However, along those lines, the slight difference in expansion of a 7mm 180 berger and a .30 220 berger is not quite justifiable enough to really cause such as big a controversy as it has.....Can we agree on that? And honestly, I find the 7mm 180 berger would be more effective based simply on design, diameter, ogive shape, wind disspertion, and aerodynamics. The reason 7mm calibers, 6.5 calibers, and .257 calibers are so flat shooting is b/c of all of the above reasons. The cartridge design mixed with hot loads and a long & narrow bullet is only naturally going to be flatter shooting than say a bullet with the same length, but rounder and larger diameter cutting through the air. Makes perfect geometrical sense and adheres perfectly to the common laws of Physics.
Are they both effective? Yes, but bassd on proprietary shape and lower wind drag on the 7mm 180gr bullets, stuffed into a STW case or 7mm Rem Mag case, should (when calculated into applied physics) beat the 300 win mag in accuracy, grouping, but equal in effectiveness at distance, thanks to that bullet design.
Are they both effective? Yes, but bassd on proprietary shape and lower wind drag on the 7mm 180gr bullets, stuffed into a STW case or 7mm Rem Mag case, should (when calculated into applied physics) beat the 300 win mag in accuracy, grouping, but equal in effectiveness at distance, thanks to that bullet design.
dakor
Well-Known Member
I think we are living a pipe dream hear with the 30 Cal being substantially larger than a 7mm. I think you may want to call Berger and talk to Eric so he can fill you in on how the target bullets expand against the hunting VLD bullets. Because I am talking about the 7mm 180 Hunting VLD.
I will try giving the best comparison I can and get it close.
Cow elk exit on off shoulder and the bullet never hit the bone. It was shot with a 7mm STW & a 7mm 180gr Hunting VLD leaving the muzzle at 3157fps. The elevation was 5500 feet and the range was 357 yards.
Cow Elk shot through the lungs at 279 yards with a 300 win, 210 bergers leaving the muzzle at 2920fps and a elevation of 6200 feet.
Now that 210 30cal Berger VLD was 78 yards closer and 700 feet higher in elevation. That 210 Berger also expands more than the 215 Hybrid if you do not believe me call Berger bullets and talk to a bullet tech. That exit is the size of my thumb. Where is this substantial difference in frontal area between a 7mm and a 30cal and way more damage I am supposed to see?
I will try giving the best comparison I can and get it close.
Cow elk exit on off shoulder and the bullet never hit the bone. It was shot with a 7mm STW & a 7mm 180gr Hunting VLD leaving the muzzle at 3157fps. The elevation was 5500 feet and the range was 357 yards.
Cow Elk shot through the lungs at 279 yards with a 300 win, 210 bergers leaving the muzzle at 2920fps and a elevation of 6200 feet.
Now that 210 30cal Berger VLD was 78 yards closer and 700 feet higher in elevation. That 210 Berger also expands more than the 215 Hybrid if you do not believe me call Berger bullets and talk to a bullet tech. That exit is the size of my thumb. Where is this substantial difference in frontal area between a 7mm and a 30cal and way more damage I am supposed to see?
All of you guys are still so hung up on "1000 YARDS". Sounds like you all are insinuating that what ever caliber you are using is a one shot one kill at 1000 yards. Are you guys all shooting off a dialed in rifle rest with ear muffs on or are you bent into all sorts of contortions with your rifle resting on a rock the size of a grapefruit?
What if you are in thick brush with your 1000 yard gun (7 or 308)and you get ran slam over by a charging moose or grizzly. I'm thinking right about now BC's don't mean squat. Muzzle energy some, but the initial shock of the bullet hitting the bear in the gut from a hip shot 7 or 30...is it enough to make the bear stop for just a second for you to get off a better aimed shot? If not, you're about to get your temperature checked rectally with your prize 1000 yard gun.
Again I say neither is "enough". In the very best of situations with some of the very best range finders, barometers and other "stuff" you guys use then probably. When questions like the OP made are answered I think most immediately think in optimal conditions...well of course it is. One shot drops the animal dead in his tracks.
BUT what if you are out of the boiler room by several inches? The animal is already 1000 yards ahead of you and you obviously have some rough terrain to make up the distance or you wouldn't have take the 1000 yard shot. Would you? Maybe you shot low and broke a front leg. Maybe you made a kidney shot and there is absolutely no blood trail to follow. I'm betting the 7RM or 300 WM was enough to kill this animal, but you'll never find it. But in the off chance you found blood to follow and it was weak blood and you decided to flag it and come back tomorrow and pick up the trail. After a day of tracking you find the animal dead but it is all bloated and stinky and the meat is spoiled? Oh well, the head is what you went after any way, right?
I know and concede the above senerio could have happened with any gun and any shooter. But let's use our calulators in our own heads, the one with ethicsm not stats or KE or bullet drop or rotion of the earth. Some one mentioned earlier that a gut shot elk with a 338 is a gut shot elk with a 243. Not hardly sir. I would dare to say that the 338 woud make at least 4 times the damage to a gut than a 243 would. But you could kill that same elk at 1000 yards with a 243 with a 115 grain hunting bullet and an ear shot. But we no better than to go bear hunting with a switch.
I'm gonna go bush hog down some food plots and then disc them under and get the plots ready for summer feed.
Good luck with your debate. I have enjoyed it thus far.
Beelzs
What if you are in thick brush with your 1000 yard gun (7 or 308)and you get ran slam over by a charging moose or grizzly. I'm thinking right about now BC's don't mean squat. Muzzle energy some, but the initial shock of the bullet hitting the bear in the gut from a hip shot 7 or 30...is it enough to make the bear stop for just a second for you to get off a better aimed shot? If not, you're about to get your temperature checked rectally with your prize 1000 yard gun.
Again I say neither is "enough". In the very best of situations with some of the very best range finders, barometers and other "stuff" you guys use then probably. When questions like the OP made are answered I think most immediately think in optimal conditions...well of course it is. One shot drops the animal dead in his tracks.
BUT what if you are out of the boiler room by several inches? The animal is already 1000 yards ahead of you and you obviously have some rough terrain to make up the distance or you wouldn't have take the 1000 yard shot. Would you? Maybe you shot low and broke a front leg. Maybe you made a kidney shot and there is absolutely no blood trail to follow. I'm betting the 7RM or 300 WM was enough to kill this animal, but you'll never find it. But in the off chance you found blood to follow and it was weak blood and you decided to flag it and come back tomorrow and pick up the trail. After a day of tracking you find the animal dead but it is all bloated and stinky and the meat is spoiled? Oh well, the head is what you went after any way, right?
I know and concede the above senerio could have happened with any gun and any shooter. But let's use our calulators in our own heads, the one with ethicsm not stats or KE or bullet drop or rotion of the earth. Some one mentioned earlier that a gut shot elk with a 338 is a gut shot elk with a 243. Not hardly sir. I would dare to say that the 338 woud make at least 4 times the damage to a gut than a 243 would. But you could kill that same elk at 1000 yards with a 243 with a 115 grain hunting bullet and an ear shot. But we no better than to go bear hunting with a switch.
I'm gonna go bush hog down some food plots and then disc them under and get the plots ready for summer feed.
Good luck with your debate. I have enjoyed it thus far.
Beelzs
dakor
Well-Known Member
southpa;I appreciate all your opinions. 1- im not worried about recoil. ive shot both the calibers of topic and and recoil doesnt bother me. however im adressing the recoil factor as per LR accuracy. [/QUOTE said:
Lets say for all reasonable purposes that nobody here knows squat about LR shooting! Just as a help for me trying to select a caliber... Put all your prefferences aside for just a moment and look at it this way...
You have zero LR experience and you are presented with 2 calibers (assume you do not know what either calibers are for this scenario). keep in mind the shooter is competent and ethical and will not attempt shots outside his skill level
1-Muzzle velocity between the 2 calibers is a wash
2-1000yd velicity almost a wash
3-KE slightly higher on caliber 2
4-BC ehhh
5-caliber 1 has less recoil caliber 2 encourages a brake more so
6-caliber 1 doesnt quite (very close though) measure up to caliber 2 on the KE but caliber 1 is less suceptable to wind drift and what not as it posses a smaller more narrow bullet design ultimately aiding to accuracy (which is the name of the game in the first place).
7-caliber 1 ultimatley matches up to caliber 2 and it does so with a smaller lighter bullet, with less felt recoil...
Here are some number that were previously posted:
1- 180 Hybrid, G7 BC .345, MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1756, KE 1232, 5 MPH wind 4.5 MOA
2- 215 Hybrid. G7 BC .356. MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1788, KE 1526, 5 MPH wind 4.4 MOA
I realize most guys will find what they like and defend it till the end but based on what facts i have gather in the above, trowing out either caliber specifically and looking at what is presented, what is your consensus. Isnt accuracy the underlying factor? Maybe its a aguruement of accuracy vs. energy to save your a$@ should your accuracy fail at 1000 yd. BUT....if you are accurate who needs the evergy right.....
You have zero LR experience and you are presented with 2 calibers (assume you do not know what either calibers are for this scenario). keep in mind the shooter is competent and ethical and will not attempt shots outside his skill level
1-Muzzle velocity between the 2 calibers is a wash
2-1000yd velicity almost a wash
3-KE slightly higher on caliber 2
4-BC ehhh
5-caliber 1 has less recoil caliber 2 encourages a brake more so
6-caliber 1 doesnt quite (very close though) measure up to caliber 2 on the KE but caliber 1 is less suceptable to wind drift and what not as it posses a smaller more narrow bullet design ultimately aiding to accuracy (which is the name of the game in the first place).
7-caliber 1 ultimatley matches up to caliber 2 and it does so with a smaller lighter bullet, with less felt recoil...
Here are some number that were previously posted:
1- 180 Hybrid, G7 BC .345, MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1756, KE 1232, 5 MPH wind 4.5 MOA
2- 215 Hybrid. G7 BC .356. MV 2950
1000 yds Vel 1788, KE 1526, 5 MPH wind 4.4 MOA
I realize most guys will find what they like and defend it till the end but based on what facts i have gather in the above, trowing out either caliber specifically and looking at what is presented, what is your consensus. Isnt accuracy the underlying factor? Maybe its a aguruement of accuracy vs. energy to save your a$@ should your accuracy fail at 1000 yd. BUT....if you are accurate who needs the evergy right.....
Outlaw6.0
Well-Known Member
cohunter14
Well-Known Member
Just threw these numbers into the ballistics calculator on here. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the 215 hybrid yet, so I used the 210. But I thought you would like these numbers: at 1,000 yards with a 10mph crosswind, the 180 would have 47.9" of bullet drift. The 210 would have 50.6". So really, when one has 'less drift,' you are not talking anything significant (less than 3" at 1,000 yards). The bullet drop is almost identical too at that yardage. I also think that when you are talking recoil, the difference between the two of these is going to be so minimal that you will not really notice a difference. Having said all of that, my personal preference based on everything would probably be the .300 simply because you are going to be able to push a bullet that is 15-20% heavier. That is the only real advantage/disadvantage I see between the two.
Just a side note, I went through this same questioning 6 months ago except I included the 300 RUM in the discussion. I decided on the RUM because it was a larger bullet and I could push it a bit faster. The only negative for me was added recoil, which is noticable on the 300 RUM. Anyway, just wanted to throw out the disclaimer As everyone has said, you won't be disappointed no matter which cartridge you choose!
Just a side note, I went through this same questioning 6 months ago except I included the 300 RUM in the discussion. I decided on the RUM because it was a larger bullet and I could push it a bit faster. The only negative for me was added recoil, which is noticable on the 300 RUM. Anyway, just wanted to throw out the disclaimer
As everyone has said, you won't be disappointed no matter which cartridge you choose!
