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<blockquote data-quote="SansSouci" data-source="post: 1235969" data-attributes="member: 84520"><p>Good Morning, Ohio06,</p><p></p><p>The obvious question is the purpose of your rifle.</p><p></p><p>I'm a hunter. I'm not a target shooter; hence, my perspective is hunting.</p><p></p><p>As a hunter, I love your choice of cartridge. The 7MM Rem Mag was designed to be a long range elk cartridge. It has lived up to its billing. I would appreciate your explaining your bullet choice. Are you locked in to 180 grain bullets? Is there a reason for shunning 160 grain bullets? BTW, I'm beginning to think that a 150 grain bullet might be the best all around bullet for all North American big game except for the largest bears. For the largest bears, I'd go with a 175 grain Partition. </p><p></p><p>The 7MM Rem Mag has been neutered. I have decades old 150 grain Remington Corelokt ammo that I've chrono'd at better than 3200 FPS. My advice is to hand load. My elk load was taken from published data circa 1975. It uses 160 grain Partitions, what might be consider a lot of H-4831, and Fed 215 primers. Depending on the source, it's either a grain under max, 3 grains under max, or a grain over max. Regardless, it shoots perfectly in my rifle with nary an indicator of pressure. Newer loading data indicate that my H-4831 powder charge is way over max. </p><p></p><p>If you hand load, you should be able to get 3200 FPS with 150 grain bullets, 3100 FPS with 160 grain bullets, and 3000 FPS with 175 grain bullets, all safely and out of a 24" barreled rifle.</p><p></p><p>I have a stock Sako AV 7MM Rem Mag. It has a rate of twist of 9.5:1. It's the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. My friend who's now in Heaven owned a lot of custom rifles. He told me that not a one would shoot as accurately as my Sako AV.</p><p></p><p>A couple years ago I was fortunate to be drawn for what many elk hunters call the best trophy elk unit in the nation. It was a public land, fair chase hunt. I had loaded 175 grain Partitions for what might've been the hunt of my lifetime. My chronograph revealed that I was getting 3000+ FPS with 175 grain Partitions out of my Sako's 24" barrel. However, I one-shot killed a monster bull with one 160 grain Partition that I had loaded 20 years ago. My 160 grain Partition has chrono'd better than 3100 FPS. </p><p></p><p>I hunt the Rockies exclusively. From experience, 400 yards is a long way to shoot at high altitude. Environmental conditions would have to be absolutely perfect for such a shot. A solid rest would be a must. </p><p></p><p>Most hunters try to figure out how to make a 400 yard shot. I try to figure out how I can close distance. I'd rather kill big game at a 100 yards than farther. </p><p></p><p>Rifle weight is subjective. However, it might be objective when hunting at high altitude and long treks to game are the norm. I killed my bull of a lifetime after an approximately two-and-a-half hour chase over I have no clue how many high ridges. I had to catch my breath for about a minute before I put a 160 grain Partition through its heart. It was a through-and-through wound. He was 130 yards from me when I killed him. He was 10 years old. After he was down, I was darn near down from exhaustion. It was one of the most physically demanding experiences of my life. The rub is I could have killed that monster bull just as dead with a much lighter .270 Win. </p><p></p><p>With that out of the way, I'd approach your desire for a new rifle from the angle of a hunter. Do you need to incur the expense of a custom rifle? Is it possible to fulfill your needs with a factory rifle? I'm partial to Sako; however, many factory rifles are capable of incredible out-of-the-box accuracy. Computer aided manufacturing has removed human error from rifle manufacturing. While I do not own a Savage, I've yet to read a review of a Savage that wasn't 100% positive. BTW, Sako guarantees 5-shot MOA with its Model 85. </p><p></p><p>Rifle and cartridges are nowhere near as important as ability to put bullets where they need to go. At the risk of being branded a heretic, a .338 LAPUA will not kill the largest elk that has ever lived any deader than a .308 Win provided bullets from either destroy necessary blood oxygenating and pumping equipment. Any elk with its heart destroyed has maybe a minute of upside life remaining before it falls for good. When it falls, it will not get up. Hence, accuracy is the dominant criterion of all big game hunting. Keep in mind that every living being will remain in that condition for maybe a minute at most without topside oxygenated blood flow. For humans, it's 8 seconds. </p><p></p><p>Were it me, I'd look at rifles I already have. I'd rather spend money on hunting than buying a new gun that I don't need. And were I to buy a new gun, I'd have to know that it'll do something absolutely necessary that a rifle I already own won't. Not all that long ago I darn near bought a rifle I wanted, not a rifle I needed. After lucidity returned, I decided that it'd sit in my gun safe unused. But then again, I'm a hunter, not a gun collector.</p><p></p><p>The second most accurate rifle I have ever fired was another friend's absolutely 100% stock Remington Model 700 ADL of 1960's vintage. That darn rifle would shoot tiny groups all day long. The point is a hunter could spend considerable $$$ on a custom rifle that won't do what a good-quality factory rifle will do. </p><p></p><p>A few more points: barrels longer than 24" can become unwieldy in thick forests. I actually prefer a .270 Win with a 22" barrel. Again, this is from a perspective of actual experience. A lightweight, fast handling rifle is darn near nirvana in such conditions.There is magic in .284 caliber bullets. To get equal or better sectional density, one has to move higher on the caliber continuum. The 175 grain bullet has legendary penetration. An African elephant hunter felled close to a thousand of them using a 7x57 and 175 FMJ bullets. For elk and moose, 160 Partitions are excellent. However, I think Accubonds might be better. Not all that many years ago Partitions used to be the gold standard elk bullet. For all I know, they might still be. </p><p></p><p>I own a gorgeous FN .338 Win Mag. Rifle weight and recoil make it a poor choice for North American big game hunting. I've never hunted with it. It will not kill any deader than a 7MM Rem Mag. I've seen studly dudes having difficulty shooting .300 magnums. Anecdotally, from what I've seen, the 7MM Rem Mag is the most powerful cartridge that most hunters can bench shoot without flinching. Bench shooting builds confidence. Confidence kills big game. </p><p></p><p>I'm sure you've heard stories of elk soaking up a lot of lead and were lost. I don't doubt many of those stories. However, I chalk them up to poor shooting. The old hunter's bromide of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 to the guts is more truth than legend. No elk is going to go very far with its heart and/or lungs out of commission. Put bullets where they need to go, and get ready to do a whole lot of hard work. </p><p></p><p>Finally, rifle weight in a gun store is a whole lot lighter than rifle weight at Rocky Mountain altitude. twelve-and-a-half pounds will be heavy where oxygen is scarce. I can tell you from experience that this is true. Where oxygen is scarce, an additional slice of roast beef on a sandwich is heavy. Also, big cartridges in sporter weight rifles will produce noticeable and substantial recoil when bench shooting. </p><p></p><p>Ohio06, I wish you absolute and sincere best of luck on your quest for your perfect rifle. I hope it turns out to be everything you've anticipated.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SansSouci, post: 1235969, member: 84520"] Good Morning, Ohio06, The obvious question is the purpose of your rifle. I'm a hunter. I'm not a target shooter; hence, my perspective is hunting. As a hunter, I love your choice of cartridge. The 7MM Rem Mag was designed to be a long range elk cartridge. It has lived up to its billing. I would appreciate your explaining your bullet choice. Are you locked in to 180 grain bullets? Is there a reason for shunning 160 grain bullets? BTW, I'm beginning to think that a 150 grain bullet might be the best all around bullet for all North American big game except for the largest bears. For the largest bears, I'd go with a 175 grain Partition. The 7MM Rem Mag has been neutered. I have decades old 150 grain Remington Corelokt ammo that I've chrono'd at better than 3200 FPS. My advice is to hand load. My elk load was taken from published data circa 1975. It uses 160 grain Partitions, what might be consider a lot of H-4831, and Fed 215 primers. Depending on the source, it's either a grain under max, 3 grains under max, or a grain over max. Regardless, it shoots perfectly in my rifle with nary an indicator of pressure. Newer loading data indicate that my H-4831 powder charge is way over max. If you hand load, you should be able to get 3200 FPS with 150 grain bullets, 3100 FPS with 160 grain bullets, and 3000 FPS with 175 grain bullets, all safely and out of a 24" barreled rifle. I have a stock Sako AV 7MM Rem Mag. It has a rate of twist of 9.5:1. It's the most accurate rifle I've ever fired. My friend who's now in Heaven owned a lot of custom rifles. He told me that not a one would shoot as accurately as my Sako AV. A couple years ago I was fortunate to be drawn for what many elk hunters call the best trophy elk unit in the nation. It was a public land, fair chase hunt. I had loaded 175 grain Partitions for what might've been the hunt of my lifetime. My chronograph revealed that I was getting 3000+ FPS with 175 grain Partitions out of my Sako's 24" barrel. However, I one-shot killed a monster bull with one 160 grain Partition that I had loaded 20 years ago. My 160 grain Partition has chrono'd better than 3100 FPS. I hunt the Rockies exclusively. From experience, 400 yards is a long way to shoot at high altitude. Environmental conditions would have to be absolutely perfect for such a shot. A solid rest would be a must. Most hunters try to figure out how to make a 400 yard shot. I try to figure out how I can close distance. I'd rather kill big game at a 100 yards than farther. Rifle weight is subjective. However, it might be objective when hunting at high altitude and long treks to game are the norm. I killed my bull of a lifetime after an approximately two-and-a-half hour chase over I have no clue how many high ridges. I had to catch my breath for about a minute before I put a 160 grain Partition through its heart. It was a through-and-through wound. He was 130 yards from me when I killed him. He was 10 years old. After he was down, I was darn near down from exhaustion. It was one of the most physically demanding experiences of my life. The rub is I could have killed that monster bull just as dead with a much lighter .270 Win. With that out of the way, I'd approach your desire for a new rifle from the angle of a hunter. Do you need to incur the expense of a custom rifle? Is it possible to fulfill your needs with a factory rifle? I'm partial to Sako; however, many factory rifles are capable of incredible out-of-the-box accuracy. Computer aided manufacturing has removed human error from rifle manufacturing. While I do not own a Savage, I've yet to read a review of a Savage that wasn't 100% positive. BTW, Sako guarantees 5-shot MOA with its Model 85. Rifle and cartridges are nowhere near as important as ability to put bullets where they need to go. At the risk of being branded a heretic, a .338 LAPUA will not kill the largest elk that has ever lived any deader than a .308 Win provided bullets from either destroy necessary blood oxygenating and pumping equipment. Any elk with its heart destroyed has maybe a minute of upside life remaining before it falls for good. When it falls, it will not get up. Hence, accuracy is the dominant criterion of all big game hunting. Keep in mind that every living being will remain in that condition for maybe a minute at most without topside oxygenated blood flow. For humans, it's 8 seconds. Were it me, I'd look at rifles I already have. I'd rather spend money on hunting than buying a new gun that I don't need. And were I to buy a new gun, I'd have to know that it'll do something absolutely necessary that a rifle I already own won't. Not all that long ago I darn near bought a rifle I wanted, not a rifle I needed. After lucidity returned, I decided that it'd sit in my gun safe unused. But then again, I'm a hunter, not a gun collector. The second most accurate rifle I have ever fired was another friend's absolutely 100% stock Remington Model 700 ADL of 1960's vintage. That darn rifle would shoot tiny groups all day long. The point is a hunter could spend considerable $$$ on a custom rifle that won't do what a good-quality factory rifle will do. A few more points: barrels longer than 24" can become unwieldy in thick forests. I actually prefer a .270 Win with a 22" barrel. Again, this is from a perspective of actual experience. A lightweight, fast handling rifle is darn near nirvana in such conditions.There is magic in .284 caliber bullets. To get equal or better sectional density, one has to move higher on the caliber continuum. The 175 grain bullet has legendary penetration. An African elephant hunter felled close to a thousand of them using a 7x57 and 175 FMJ bullets. For elk and moose, 160 Partitions are excellent. However, I think Accubonds might be better. Not all that many years ago Partitions used to be the gold standard elk bullet. For all I know, they might still be. I own a gorgeous FN .338 Win Mag. Rifle weight and recoil make it a poor choice for North American big game hunting. I've never hunted with it. It will not kill any deader than a 7MM Rem Mag. I've seen studly dudes having difficulty shooting .300 magnums. Anecdotally, from what I've seen, the 7MM Rem Mag is the most powerful cartridge that most hunters can bench shoot without flinching. Bench shooting builds confidence. Confidence kills big game. I'm sure you've heard stories of elk soaking up a lot of lead and were lost. I don't doubt many of those stories. However, I chalk them up to poor shooting. The old hunter's bromide of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 to the guts is more truth than legend. No elk is going to go very far with its heart and/or lungs out of commission. Put bullets where they need to go, and get ready to do a whole lot of hard work. Finally, rifle weight in a gun store is a whole lot lighter than rifle weight at Rocky Mountain altitude. twelve-and-a-half pounds will be heavy where oxygen is scarce. I can tell you from experience that this is true. Where oxygen is scarce, an additional slice of roast beef on a sandwich is heavy. Also, big cartridges in sporter weight rifles will produce noticeable and substantial recoil when bench shooting. Ohio06, I wish you absolute and sincere best of luck on your quest for your perfect rifle. I hope it turns out to be everything you've anticipated. [/QUOTE]
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