7mm 168 gr Berger VLD Hunting bullets issue

PowellSixO

PowellSixO

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
658
Location
Arizona
The last box of 7mm 168 gr Berger VLDs I got, were off. It was weird, let me explain. Exactly half of the bullets in the box measured exactly .010" off from the other half of the box (from the base of the bullet to the ogive). I always load these bullets .010" off the lands, and I double check with my Hornady Lock N Load Overall Length Gauge, with every new box I get (because I know they can be different from lot to lot). With the last box I bought, I grabbed a bullet out, and found my CBTO to the lands to be 2.7375". I adjusted my RCBS competition bullet seating die to give me a CBTO of 2.7275". The 1st round loaded came out perfect (Obviously, I used it to set the die. Haha). The 2nd round loaded came out perfect (As I would expect). The 3rd round loaded had a 2.7375" CBTO. What the heck I thought?? So I adjusted the die and set the 3rd round to a 2.7275" CBTO. The 4th round loaded was 2.7275". Alright I'm in business, or so I thought. The 5th round loaded was now at a 2.7175" CBTO. What the heck???? So I pulled the die and took it apart to figure out what the problem was. I could find nothing wrong with my seating die. So I pulled all of the bullets I just loaded, and started measuring the bullets. They were all different. So I went through the whole box, and found 50 bullets to be .010" longer from the bullet base to the ogive, versus the other 50 in the box. So I then used my Hornady Lock N Load Overall Length Gauge to find my CBTO length to the lands. With the 2 different length bullets, I came up with 2 different CBTO's to the lands. So long story short, I ended up having to load 50 of the bullets with the die set in one postition, and the other 50 bullets with the die set at a different position, all to achieve the same CBTO, to maintain .010" off the lands. Lol. Clear as mud right!?

So now for a couple of questions. Do you guys think that these rounds are all going to shoot the same? Or do you think there will be differences (I only shoot out to 700 yards, and use these for hunting only)?

One last thing I wanted to point out, was that this could have been a problem if I wouldn't have taken the time to measure each of these as I loaded them. I'm close to max powder charge with these loads. If I didn't catch this issue, I would have been kissing the lands with half of my loads, which potentially could have created some high pressures. Not sure if it would have caused a failure, but it wouldn't have been the safest situation ever. So I guess what I'm getting at is, take your time and pay attention to what you're doing when reloading.

Thanks for reading.
 
I had a similar issue with 6mm 105 gr Hybrids. I contacted Berger, sent a sample, they verified my problem and exchanged my bullets. This was a lot of 1200 bullets. That was 3 or 4 years ago, every recent lot has had outstanding uniformity.

I'm sure they'll take care of your problem also.
 
From your measurements it doesn't matter a bit on the base to ojive measurements. If the nose shape is the same, your base to ojive on the bullet could be off by an INCH and you will still get the same base (of cartridge) to ojive measurment. It is just that the base of your bullet will be seated 1 inch deeper in your case.

Don't get me wrong, a ten thou runout in base to ojive of a bullet is huge and will surly wreak havoc with your accuracy potential. It is just that the only part of the bullet your seating die ever sees a single point near the ojive, and will seat the bullet accordingly.

If the nose shape is the same you can load, say 30 cal 168 grain VLD's and 210 VLD's to the same base to ojive without changing your die....it is just that there will be a whole lot more bullet stuck in the case!! The loaded round will look identicle.

Good luck,
Tod
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. For sh!ts and grins, I opened the other 4 boxes of the 168 gr VLDs I have last night. I went through and measured all of them while watching TV. They were all good to go. The biggest difference I found through all 400 bullets was .003" which I feel is very good for 400 bullets, and from all different lots. I'm hoping that the accuracy of the 50 rounds I made that were .010" off won't be too bad. But just to be safe I put them in their own box and labeled them for practice only. The other 50 that I loaded match the 400 bullets I measured last night, so I think they'll be good to go. gun)
 
PowellSixO said:
The last box of 7mm 168 gr Berger VLDs I got, were off. It was weird, let me explain. Exactly half of the bullets in the box measured exactly .010" off from the other half of the box (from the base of the bullet to the ogive). I always load these bullets .010" off the lands, and I double check with my Hornady Lock N Load Overall Length Gauge, with every new box I get (because I know they can be different from lot to lot). With the last box I bought, I grabbed a bullet out, and found my CBTO to the lands to be 2.7375". I adjusted my RCBS competition bullet seating die to give me a CBTO of 2.7275". The 1st round loaded came out perfect (Obviously, I used it to set the die. Haha). The 2nd round loaded came out perfect (As I would expect). The 3rd round loaded had a 2.7375" CBTO. What the heck I thought?? So I adjusted the die and set the 3rd round to a 2.7275" CBTO. The 4th round loaded was 2.7275". Alright I'm in business, or so I thought. The 5th round loaded was now at a 2.7175" CBTO. What the heck???? So I pulled the die and took it apart to figure out what the problem was. I could find nothing wrong with my seating die. So I pulled all of the bullets I just loaded, and started measuring the bullets. They were all different. So I went through the whole box, and found 50 bullets to be .010" longer from the bullet base to the ogive, versus the other 50 in the box. So I then used my Hornady Lock N Load Overall Length Gauge to find my CBTO length to the lands. With the 2 different length bullets, I came up with 2 different CBTO's to the lands. So long story short, I ended up having to load 50 of the bullets with the die set in one postition, and the other 50 bullets with the die set at a different position, all to achieve the same CBTO, to maintain .010" off the lands. Lol. Clear as mud right!?

So now for a couple of questions. Do you guys think that these rounds are all going to shoot the same? Or do you think there will be differences (I only shoot out to 700 yards, and use these for hunting only)?

One last thing I wanted to point out, was that this could have been a problem if I wouldn't have taken the time to measure each of these as I loaded them. I'm close to max powder charge with these loads. If I didn't catch this issue, I would have been kissing the lands with half of my loads, which potentially could have created some high pressures. Not sure if it would have caused a failure, but it wouldn't have been the safest situation ever. So I guess what I'm getting at is, take your time and pay attention to what you're doing when reloading.

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...
Powellsix,
Please contact Ryan Robertson at [email protected] or 714-441-7226 in regards to your issue with the out of spec box of bullets. We will get you taken care of !
 
Thanks again everyone for the information. And thank you Barefooter56 for the offer. I must confess that I wasn't 100% honest with you guys. Everything I wrote was 100% true, but I lied about how I found out about this issue. I was a little embarrassed to tell you the truth honestly. But then I got to thinking about it, and thought it could be a very good learning experience. So I figured I'd share some pictures. If it helps even one person, it will be worth the embarrassment.

SO any who,
From what you've read so far, you know I had a lot of bullets that when measured to the ogive using a bullet comparator, you would see some difference from one to the other. I set my seating die correctly and measured the first few rounds to make sure things were staying consistent, and then went about pressing the last 45 or so bullets (I was loading a box of 50). Now for the part I left out. At the range I shot a 3 shot group, and all was well. My 4th round seemed a bit tight when chambering. I should have stopped right there, but I didn't. The shot went off as normal until I lifted the bolt. It was stiff, and the case didn't eject as it should. I dug the case out of the bolt head, and the primer fell out. ***! I looked closer and discovered massive signs of over pressure, and a collapsed ejector spring. I quit for the day and went home. I couldn't figure out for the life of me what went wrong. So I started measuring the rounds one by one as I wrote above. That's when I discovered my problem. So by having some rounds a little too long, meant I was jamming rounds into the lands. This is what accounted for the extreme over pressure I experienced. One other thing I failed on, was my measurements. When I wrote my original post, I was doing it from memory (without my notes), and I thought I had the measurements correct, which I didn't.

Just for information's sake, using my comparator, I measure exactly 2.7275" from the base of the case to the ogive with 168gr berger vlds, in my 7mm rem mag. So anything longer than this is jammed into the lands. So here are some pictures of the whole ordeal. Since this experience I've learned to measure EVERY round after seating the bullet, especially since I plan on continuing to load so close to the lands. Another thing that I discovered, was that the difference in length from one bullet to the other made no noticeable difference in accuracy as long as I loaded them all to the same length. For that reason, I chose not to contact Berger about the issue. It would be a mute point. Yes there are small differences, but they shoot the same. So be careful guys, and learn from my mistake.

I'd like to give a big shout out to Berger. You guys rock. I'm in no way saying anything bad about your product with my post. I'm just pointing out my ******* mistake. You guys make an awesome product, and I use your bullets for 3 of my rifles. Keep up the good work.


Base of the case with obvious signs of over pressure.



To the lands.





Colapsed Ejector spring, and markings on the bolt head.



Round too long. Jammed .004" into lands.
 
Don't feel too bad... I've had an overpressure moment before when working on load development for my .25-06 AI...Except the primer actually disintegrated out of the case...There was no evidence of primer left anywhere.

9818175E-6B1F-4B01-BFAC-F6A351510E02_zpsyzx0ao8h.jpg

13FDFF21-BA53-4745-BC77-08EF08323BCD_zpsj1jryxyd.jpg
 
Thats rough,
I've loosened a couple of primer pockets but never disinterested one.
I did ignite a backwards 215m primer though.
 

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We've all done it ,or something like it at one time or another. When we do we never forget it and dont repeat it!
 
tbrice23 said:
Thats rough,
I've loosened a couple of primer pockets but never disinterested one.
I did ignite a backwards 215m primer though.
Click to expand...

Scared me pretty good... I stopped shooting it right then and there. I took it back to my smith the next day so he could pull it apart and magnaflux it to make sure nothing was damaged. Waiting on the news was the longest week of my life. Thank God everything was fine, or that would have been a lot of money wasted.

I bet that backwards primer made a weird sound...

barefooter56 said:
We've all done it ,or something like it at one time or another. When we do we never forget it and dont repeat it!
Click to expand...

Yep.
 
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