338 Build Thoughts - 2400 yards!

[flounder]

Ok so I dont really post here much but I think you guys may be able to help me out.

So here is the deal. And yes Ive been doing a metric ****-ton of reading both here and on other forums and have just a few questions in case any of you are willing to help me out. Ive been seriously tinkering with the idea of building a 338 of which I want to push to its absolute limits. My goals are as follows.

I want to be able to use both the 250 and 300 grain pills from Lapua or SMK.
Ideally I would like to push the 300grain pill to around 2900fps
Decent brass life
Decent barrel life.

Ive been doing the comparisons between the 338LM, 338 Norma Mag, and 338 IMP 40* shoulder (which I assume is the 338 Ackley Improved?)

I havent been able to find much on velocity, brass life, or barrel life of the 338 Norma but from what I have found, the specs, appears to be very similar to the 338LM but with a shortened case.

From everything ive read, it sounds as though my options are fairly limited but wanted to touch base with those of you that know more then me.

Also, Ive read of barrels everywhere from 9.3, 9.4, 9.5, and 10 twist. Thoughts?

My goal is to see if I can push the 300 grain to 2400 yards. Yes I know its subsonic at that range and will require anywhere from 120-130 MOA but this is a bit of a test for me. No I do not want to go to a 338/408, 375, or 408. I also understand the 338 Edge but from what I can gather, barrel and brass life is less then ideal.

It seems as though the 338 IMP appears to have the best brass life, barrel life, and least amount of pressure issues when sending the 300 near the 2900fps mark.

Any thoughts, experiences, of suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

And before anyone asks, No I dont ever plan on taking a shot at an animal at a distance like that. I picked 2400 as the mark because its just below where the round will be subsonic and will be a helluva challenge.

I like challenges.

 

[Joel Russo]

There's a boat load of reasons why the .338-.408 would be the logical choice of all the .338's, but I won't elaborate, as you stated in your post that you don't want to build on that platform.
So, my bid for the distance you want to reach is the .338 Lapua. You won't gain much in the velocity department by going to the improved case, but you will in the efficiency department...
Pick your twist of barrels that you referenced, they will all work fine.

I'm all for challenges too, I just like to stack the deck in my favor.

 

[flounder]

There's a boat load of reasons why the .338-.408 would be the logical choice of all the .338's, but I won't elaborate, as you stated in your post that you don't want to build on that platform.
So, my bid for the distance you want to reach is the .338 Lapua. You won't gain much in the velocity department by going to the improved case, but you will in the efficiency department...
Pick your twist of barrels that you referenced, they will all work fine.

I'm all for challenges too, I just like to stack the deck in my favor.

Yeah I know all about that awesome rig of yours. And it was good meeting you out at Thunder Valley during the suppressor shoot. Are you going to make it out there much this year?

 

[royinidaho]

Do a search on "thunder" on here and look for anything that says '338 Thunder'.

Should be some decent reading.....

 

[Topshot]

flounder,
I have shot my .338 Edge out to 2285 yards from a M.V. of over 2900 fps, and can tell you that a 1 : 10 twist barrel will not stabilize the 300 SMK through the transonic barrier.
B.C. goes to hell after 2000 yards and 300SMK bullets drop like rocks, and land all over the place.
Had better luck with 250 grain bullets with the 1 : 10 twist they shoot OK at these distances.

You will need a lot of elevation to get up 120 MOA. Maxed out my turret and then used my scope on a lower power setting to get more MOA from my reticle hash marks.

This sort of shooting is great fun......good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[Joel Russo]

Yeah I know all about that awesome rig of yours. And it was good meeting you out at Thunder Valley during the suppressor shoot. Are you going to make it out there much this year?

Good to hear from you flounder, you jogged my memory...

I thought you had a .338-.408 at that last shoot?? Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with one of the other forum members that was there..

Tom called and asked us to come this weekend. Short notice, and we won't have a new rifle completed to do some testing way on out there.
I suspect we'll get there in the next few weeks.

Shoot me a PM when you know when you'll be there.

 

[flounder]

Good to hear from you flounder, you jogged my memory...

I thought you had a .338-.408 at that last shoot?? Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with one of the other forum members that was there..

Tom called and asked us to come this weekend. Short notice, and we won't have a new rifle completed to do some testing way on out there.
I suspect we'll get there in the next few weeks.

Shoot me a PM when you know when you'll be there.

I wish I could afford the 338/408 but no luck there. Its actually going to be pretty tight budget wise for me to build the 338 as is. I just have my 308 right now and there are soo many different builds I would love to be able to try. Im looking for houses right now and hopefully can find one where I can have enough room for a lathe and mill and do my own gunsmithing on my rigs. I dont have any desire to do it as a business though.

I wont be at TVP this weekend either. I am actually going to help a buddy out in his shop for the day and try and get some shooting in. I will definitely let you know next time Im planning on heading to TVP. Hopefully things have been going good for you lately.

 

[J E Custom]

For the best quality and longevity of brass it's hard to beat the Lapua brass with high
pressure loads so From what you have said you wanted I would recomended the following.

A 338 Lapua mag with a 37.5 shoulder and a minimum body taper of .007 per inch. Also
you can use a Weatherby MK5 action because it is longer than other commercial actions
buy over .140 Thousandths or use a custom action so you can seat the bullet long.

And for velocity have some free bore so pressures can be managed. With the longer actions
you won't have to single load if you want to have follow up shots.

If I were going to build an all out 338 then I would go larger, but you said you didn't and
sticking to your request that is what I would recomend.

I have 2 338 RUMs with long barrels and they will shoot well beyond my ability(They are both
built on the MK5) and seated long giving them the same performance as the longer 338 seated
deep for the standard mag.

Just a thought

J E CUSTOM

 

[Joel Russo]

I wish I could afford the 338/408 but no luck there. Its actually going to be pretty tight budget wise for me to build the 338 as is. I just have my 308 right now and there are soo many different builds I would love to be able to try. Im looking for houses right now and hopefully can find one where I can have enough room for a lathe and mill and do my own gunsmithing on my rigs. I dont have any desire to do it as a business though.

I wont be at TVP this weekend either. I am actually going to help a buddy out in his shop for the day and try and get some shooting in. I will definitely let you know next time Im planning on heading to TVP. Hopefully things have been going good for you lately.

Finding a house is certainly more important that building a rifle...

J E Custom is spot on with his advise.

Send me an e-mail and I'll help you as best I can when you want to start piecing the .338 together.

All is well here, just trying to keep up with the work load as is everyone else in the business.

 

[acloco]

You can have your cake and eat it too.

I built a 338 RUM using a 32" Rock Creek 1:8.4 twist barrel. Throated for 300 gr SMK's specifically.

To date, longest deer taken with this rifle is 1868 yards.

You WILL need a muzzle brake as well.

With that barrel, the 300 gr SMK's are running 2950 fps. Can go faster, but took just a touch off because we use the rifle in all weather conditions.

If you can speak with somebody who reloads the Lapua case as close to this speed or above, they are only getting 3-5 reloads from a case. To date, we are on #6 and #7. #7 will be tossed after this firing though, primer pocket is getting loose. Unless, of course, we try the Wolfe brand primers and work up a load again (they have a larger OD).

 

[kellyzier]

Ok so I dont really post here much but I think you guys may be able to help me out.

So here is the deal. And yes Ive been doing a metric ****-ton of reading both here and on other forums and have just a few questions in case any of you are willing to help me out. Ive been seriously tinkering with the idea of building a 338 of which I want to push to its absolute limits. My goals are as follows.

I want to be able to use both the 250 and 300 grain pills from Lapua or SMK.
Ideally I would like to push the 300grain pill to around 2900fps
Decent brass life
Decent barrel life.

Ive been doing the comparisons between the 338LM, 338 Norma Mag, and 338 IMP 40* shoulder (which I assume is the 338 Ackley Improved?)

I havent been able to find much on velocity, brass life, or barrel life of the 338 Norma but from what I have found, the specs, appears to be very similar to the 338LM but with a shortened case.

From everything ive read, it sounds as though my options are fairly limited but wanted to touch base with those of you that know more then me.

Also, Ive read of barrels everywhere from 9.3, 9.4, 9.5, and 10 twist. Thoughts?

My goal is to see if I can push the 300 grain to 2400 yards. Yes I know its subsonic at that range and will require anywhere from 120-130 MOA but this is a bit of a test for me. No I do not want to go to a 338/408, 375, or 408. I also understand the 338 Edge but from what I can gather, barrel and brass life is less then ideal.

It seems as though the 338 IMP appears to have the best brass life, barrel life, and least amount of pressure issues when sending the 300 near the 2900fps mark.

Any thoughts, experiences, of suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

And before anyone asks, No I dont ever plan on taking a shot at an animal at a distance like that. I picked 2400 as the mark because its just below where the round will be subsonic and will be a helluva challenge.

I like challenges.

I hate to respond here because there are so many opinions and mine is just like all others.....I have a 338 edge by shawn carlock, in fact it was his personal rifle last year....I love it..It shoots 1/4 moa all day long in a 15lb gun.

My 15yr old shot a 1 moa group last week with it at just over 1600 yards....I love the gun, but frankly, if you really want to go much beyond this, you might want to look at Dave Viers 375 snipe tac or kirby allans 375 Allan mag.

Im building a 375 snipe tac for this purpose. I like the edge for practice out to 1600 yards...The edge is a good training caliber with doping the wind and its cheap to shoot. And it kills like nobodies business. My 15 yr old shot a bull elk with my edge at 940 yards and it dropped like a ton of bricks.


Your biggest problem past this range is wind...In fact your biggest problem to this range is wind,,,The snipe tac and the allan mag nearly cuts this problem in half (with the right bullet). Get a 338 am or snipe tac and you will burn up barrels, get a 375 snipe tac or am and you mitigate this. Im not knocking the 338 snipe tac or the 338 am, I almost built the 338 Am, the 375 in my opinion has benefits you can't pass up.

In summary, if you are a new shooter, start out with the 338 edge or the lapua. Personally, I like the edge. Once you have spent time wth the 338 and you really understand lift, and wind and how it effects your bullet to 1,000 yards, then you are ready to step up to the bigger guns like the chey tac.

Keep in mind, if you start out with the chey tac, it becomes your training gun. And its going to cost you some real bucks to practice. I like my edge for this purpose. I hate to say this, but I think you really need both calibers. The edge to get you to just under a mile and then the snipe tac or the AM to get you beyond this. I use my deisel truck for my heavy hauling with my business and my 30 mpg camaro for my every day running around, if this makes sense.

This is my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.

LOL
kz

 

[Joel Russo]

Get a 338 am or snipe tac and you will burn up barrels, get a 375 snipe tac or am and you mitigate this. Im not knocking the 338 snipe tac or the 338 am, I almost built the 338 Am, the 375 in my opinion has benefits you can't pass up.


LOL
kz

Just curious if you ever shot out a barrel chambered in .338-.408, or .375-.408 and you compared the longevity of both? If so, when did the acceptable accuracy of either diminish? And, what do you accept as "acceptable accuracy"?

And what your opinion is of the benefits the .375-.408 has over the .338-.408 that you can't pass up.

 

[kellyzier]

Just curious if you ever shot out a barrel chambered in .338-.408, or .375-.408 and you compared the longevity of both? If so, when did the acceptable accuracy of either diminish? And, what do you accept as "acceptable accuracy"?

And what your opinion is of the benefits the .375-.408 has over the .338-.408 that you can't pass up.

Joel, Im glad you asked. There are lots of opinions on this web site and I guess alll of us here should have some facts before we go spouting off claims. So I will attempt to clairify my "spouts".

When I started my string, I really hesitated to state my opinion, because there are a number of guys shooting the 338 AM and snipe tac very successfully.

That said, I have not personally shot out a barrel in the 338 AM or snipe tac. However, both Shawn Carlock and Kirby Allan have. In my quest to build the ultimate rifle, I was originally going to buy one of Kirby Allan's used guns (375 AM), this rifle was a 338 AM that he burnt the barrel out of. Instead of re-barreling to 338, he chose to bring her up to 375.

I have had some conversations with Kirby on this, and it's my opinion that he re-barreled to 375 for a reason. The 375 is slower, bigger and carries a ton of energy. I don't want to speak for Kirby, in fact you might ask his opinion or read some of his strings.

What's better, the 338 or 375 AM,,,,below is a copy of an email Kirby sent me............................................

((((((Obviously barrel life will be in favor of the 375 as it will offer at least 25% longer barrel life if cared for properly compared to a 338 AM cared for in the same manner. I have really seen no difference in accuracy at long range. Both the 300 gr SMK and 350 gr SMK have very similiar BC numbers. 0.800 for the 338 compared to around 0.780 for the 375. The 338 can drive the 300 gr SMK to 3300 fps pretty easily in a 32" barrel length with comfortable pressures. The 375 can drive the 350 gr SMK to 3250 fps pretty easily in same length barrel with comfortable pressures. In the end, the 338 will have a VERY slight advantage in drop and windage numbers but the 375 will have the advantage of the larger frontal area on big game and higher kenetic energy load as well.)))))))

I ended up not purchasing Kirby's gun, because it was simply too heavy. So I ended up at Shawn's place. Shawn had already burnt up the barrel in his 338 AM. I was going to purchase Shawn's gun and he was going to re-barrel for me to 375 AM. I can't recall exactly ( and you can ask shawn or kirby) but I thought one or both of them told me 700 or 800 rounds or so and they saw serious throat erosion in the 338 AM

This is what lead me to my opinion on the 375. Again, it's only my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. I was very careful to give my opinion because there are so many 338's out there and I don't want to knock them.

What can't I pass up on the 375??? Frontal Area....Mass of the bullet...Longer barrel life,,,,,Kenetic engergy,,,,and bullet selection......more recently..hookers, rocky mountain,,,,Lehigh,,,SMK,,,HAAT,,Preditor,,,ZA and GS...

Although you can do similar things in 338, I like the mass and potential BC of the 375's. The 375 bullets still have to come a long way, but we are on the verge of something awesome. Both ZA and GS have some awesome potential for the 375 and I will post some of my findings later this spring.

On your accuracy question...Shawn Carlock requires all rifles to shoot 1 moa if you're taking his long range shooting class. So, I pretty much cater to his line of thinking for acceptable accuracy. Shawns guns and Kirbys guns are 1/2 minute guns, and if I can't get that out of a new gun then somethings wrong.

Again, if you want some exact numbers on barrel life for the 338 AM, shoot Kirby or Shawn message.

Regards,
KZ

 

[Joel Russo]

KZ~

I'm with you on the "opinions"... didn't mean to sound like I wanted facts to back up your "spouts".
I agree with the information that Kirby sent you in that e-mail. I have re-barreled a few .338-.408's, and I'm still working on the .375.
Until the recent advent of the "better" .375 bullets, the .338 was a logical choice. When shooting the 300 SMK and the 350 SMK respectively, they are ballistic twins out to say 2K.
My .338's have done extremely well, and because of that, I have focused my energy on those.
I too am testing some new "stuff".. but for the .338, and hope to get some results by the end of the spring also.