284 win build w 195 berger

[scottyd2506]

Received my bullets, brass and dies in. 6.5 284 lapua brass is indeed .497 at base, I've ncked up 20 of them using a redding tapered size button in a neck die.. this gradually expands the neck, I use a body die to try and square out shoulder some.
Necked the brass through a 309 redding siser neck die, ream the inside necks, to take pressure off where the small donut is, then outside turn necks.. the neck wall thickness is only like 0.0135 0.0140 after I expand to 7mm and I turn em down to just clean up at around 0.0125.
I will have PTD make a reamer off one of their already good reamer specs, but have it so I can use the berger 195's at 3.350 oal touching the lands and either a .314 or .315 neck (on finished chamber neck).
I'm still debating on the coal. 3.35-3.36 is just where the full dia of bullet is barely above shoulder/neck. and the boat-tail down further. I need enough room to seat the bullets touching the rifling to maybe 0.025 off, for flexibility in load development. I could go out to 3.40 but after so many rounds and throat erosion, i'm sure I'd lose bullet tension if I needed to touch rifling with bullet to have an accurate load.
I would expect around 2650-2750 fps w the 195 using 4831 30 inch barrel.

 

[scottyd2506]

Some consideration for those who might use the 7mm 195's,, if someone has a 8,5 to 9 twist 7mm barrel, these will probably not be worth it, going from a 180 hybrid to a 195 eol isn't going to gain much, maybe even lose some performance in some rifles w 9 twists. avg G1 bc of .754 from 3000-1500 fps, re calculate those numbers are the avg be from 2700-1650 fps (1000 yards) would be roughly .740
using the berger twist rate calculator for stability a loss of 8% adds to 682 bc using 9 twsit. might as well go with the 180 w a 680 bc and another 150-200 fps.

The performance gain of a 180 w a 9 twist vs the 195 w a 8 twist will be close, the 195 just edging out the 180's at 1000 yards 180@2900 5.56 in drift 1 mph wind vs 195@2700 5.37 in drift 1 mph wind. assuming 200 fps difference in speed. might be more like 150 fps dif (it's only 15 grains)

I want a non barrel burning plinker
I am opting to build around this bullet so I'm going for the 8.0 twist.. the heavier bullet will require less powder than the 180's = less velocity thus improving barrel life even more.

For ultimate performance a 7mm Rum 195@3300 fps would be unbeatable, no 338 lapua wouldn't touch it in a pipe dream for drift. 3.9 inches of drift 195@3300 vs 4.5 inch drift for 300@2800 for each mph of wind at 1000 yards. even at 2000 yards the 7rum kicks the 338 lapua's butt in drift.
. of course one had better get a load developed quick for the rum. cause the barrel throat is going to be toast in 600 rounds.

 

[AZShooter]

Thanks for the data. Be sure to post your results here when you begin shooting the rifle.

 

[TOM H]

Some consideration for those who might use the 7mm 195's,, if someone has a 8,5 to 9 twist 7mm barrel, these will probably not be worth it, going from a 180 hybrid to a 195 eol isn't going to gain much, maybe even lose some performance in some rifles w 9 twists. avg G1 bc of .754 from 3000-1500 fps, re calculate those numbers are the avg be from 2700-1650 fps (1000 yards) would be roughly .740
using the berger twist rate calculator for stability a loss of 8% adds to 682 bc using 9 twsit. might as well go with the 180 w a 680 bc and another 150-200 fps.

The performance gain of a 180 w a 9 twist vs the 195 w a 8 twist will be close, the 195 just edging out the 180's at 1000 yards 180@2900 5.56 in drift 1 mph wind vs 195@2700 5.37 in drift 1 mph wind. assuming 200 fps difference in speed. might be more like 150 fps dif (it's only 15 grains)

I want a non barrel burning plinker
I am opting to build around this bullet so I'm going for the 8.0 twist.. the heavier bullet will require less powder than the 180's = less velocity thus improving barrel life even more.

For ultimate performance a 7mm Rum 195@3300 fps would be unbeatable, no 338 lapua wouldn't touch it in a pipe dream for drift. 3.9 inches of drift 195@3300 vs 4.5 inch drift for 300@2800 for each mph of wind at 1000 yards. even at 2000 yards the 7rum kicks the 338 lapua's butt in drift.
. of course one had better get a load developed quick for the rum. cause the barrel throat is going to be toast in 600 rounds.

The posters on accurate site found out about same thing you did and Matrix been making 190gr long time using same jackets as Berger

.284 Caliber Bullets Custom Built for Accuracy | Matrix Ballistics

 

[scottyd2506]

Thanks for the data. Be sure to post your results here when you begin shooting the rifle.

it may be 6-7 months, smiths are slow around here, and thought about sending the parts off somewhere. can't find anyone online that will call back. or they want arm and let, I just want a basic action trued up, barrel ream/chamber install on action, and maybe a brake, I am considering small stuff like large bolt handle, 8-40 alignment holes trued up for base. it's a battle to find a smith, and find the parts 30 inch 1:8 7mm barrel blanks are RARE.

Another delima is what reamer to use, my case head is around .496-497, would a chamber that measures 284 win spec of .503 loosen up the primer pockets after a few firings, a .499-.500 I seen on PTG that they have a 284 win SAAMI, a 284 Win match (6.5x284 norma/lapua neckd up) , 284 gap match and 284 win cip.

They do not list spec measurement, I just don't want to make a mistake and buy the wrong reamer. what is the difference of a 284 win saami reamer and a 284 win match?

 

[TOM H]

it may be 6-7 months, smiths are slow around here, and thought about sending the parts off somewhere. can't find anyone online that will call back. or they want arm and let, I just want a basic action trued up, barrel ream/chamber install on action, and maybe a brake, I am considering small stuff like large bolt handle, 8-40 alignment holes trued up for base. it's a battle to find a smith, and find the parts 30 inch 1:8 7mm barrel blanks are RARE.

Another delima is what reamer to use, my case head is around .496-497, would a chamber that measures 284 win spec of .503 loosen up the primer pockets after a few firings, a .499-.500 I seen on PTG that they have a 284 win SAAMI, a 284 Win match (6.5x284 norma/lapua neckd up) , 284 gap match and 284 win cip.

They do not list spec measurement, I just don't want to make a mistake and buy the wrong reamer. what is the difference of a 284 win saami reamer and a 284 win match?

You might want to read this about freebore with those bullets

.284 Win with new 195g Hybrid bullets | Shooters' Forum

 

[scottyd2506]

You might want to read this about freebore with those bullets

.284 Win with new 195g Hybrid bullets | Shooters' Forum

I have read those posts, very informing, I see two guys on there having problems with the Berger 195's, but getting flyers, both have 8.0:1 twist barrels, both have a 284 improved (one a walker other a shehane) rifle and both have 4 grove rifles.
The other few people shooting them have good results out of strait 284's and 9 twists

This all raises a red flag for the Berger 195's. It seems they have a narrow wind of performance, meaning you have to spin them to get them stable enough to have your big bad .755 bc and by doing so you run the risk of jacket failure. Most likely why those two guys was getting a flyer on EVERY group. The guy on the form using the 9 twist strait 284 was pushing them at 2620 fps using h4831sc and not a max load. with great results in groups.

This bullet from a 9 twist from average altitude of around 500 ft and 50 deg is going to only have a avg BC of like .695 vs .680 (678) for the 180 w a 9 twist going 200 fps faster

Twist Rate Stability Calculator | Berger Bullets


Spin em out of some of the 8 twists and get flyers cause of jacket failure.
It appears the standard 4 grove rifling may be too harsh on this bullet, and maybe 5R rifling may be a big help. I know Kirby has tested these bullets at extreme speeds. But Kirby is very barrel smart and knows the thin jacket bullets get ate up under standard 3-4 grove rifling and he recommends 5-6 groves for this jacket bullets.

I just ordered a Krieger 1:8 twist 31 inch Heavy varmint contour blank w 5R rifling
for my rifle build. So time will tell. Like I said, I'm setting it u to shoot the 180 Hybrids, so the 195's will be seated a little deeper. I may lose 50 fps not being able to seat the 195's at coal of 3.350 like I initially wanted. , but at least I can shoot the 180's wo a ton of freebore if the 195's fail. I ream and turn my necks so not worried about the donuts.

Seems this bullet has a very limited window of a barrel types it will shoot out of and perform better than the 180 hybrids.

from my research it seems a
5R or 6 grove barrel that is easy on the thin jackets and 8 twist to get your BC, (or be the RARE few that lives over 2500 ft altitude.. I would put the average altitude of the US around 500-600 ft,) is what you have to have to make this bullet work
There is very little 8 twist 7mm barrels, most of those are std 4 grove.

I think Berger should make a thicker jacket match 195 EOL hybrid

or more barrel makers getting out of the stone age and making 8 twist 7mm barrels with a easy on jacket 5R or 6 grove rifling. I mean 7mm is getting pretty popular in 1000 yard matches.
It will be months before I can test the 7mm 1:8 tw 5R, I still have reamer and stock to buy and have someone machine it together.

 

[TOM H]

I have read those posts, very informing, I see two guys on there having problems with the Berger 195's, but getting flyers, both have 8.0:1 twist barrels, both have a 284 improved (one a walker other a shehane) rifle and both have 4 grove rifles.
The other few people shooting them have good results out of strait 284's and 9 twists

This all raises a red flag for the Berger 195's. It seems they have a narrow wind of performance, meaning you have to spin them to get them stable enough to have your big bad .755 bc and by doing so you run the risk of jacket failure. Most likely why those two guys was getting a flyer on EVERY group. The guy on the form using the 9 twist strait 284 was pushing them at 2620 fps using h4831sc and not a max load. with great results in groups.

This bullet from a 9 twist from average altitude of around 500 ft and 50 deg is going to only have a avg BC of like .695 vs .680 (678) for the 180 w a 9 twist going 200 fps faster

Twist Rate Stability Calculator | Berger Bullets


Spin em out of some of the 8 twists and get flyers cause of jacket failure.
It appears the standard 4 grove rifling may be too harsh on this bullet, and maybe 5R rifling may be a big help. I know Kirby has tested these bullets at extreme speeds. But Kirby is very barrel smart and knows the thin jacket bullets get ate up under standard 3-4 grove rifling and he recommends 5-6 groves for this jacket bullets.

I just ordered a Krieger 1:8 twist 31 inch Heavy varmint contour blank w 5R rifling
for my rifle build. So time will tell. Like I said, I'm setting it u to shoot the 180 Hybrids, so the 195's will be seated a little deeper. I may lose 50 fps not being able to seat the 195's at coal of 3.350 like I initially wanted. , but at least I can shoot the 180's wo a ton of freebore if the 195's fail. I ream and turn my necks so not worried about the donuts.

Seems this bullet has a very limited window of a barrel types it will shoot out of and perform better than the 180 hybrids.

from my research it seems a
5R or 6 grove barrel that is easy on the thin jackets and 8 twist to get your BC, (or be the RARE few that lives over 2500 ft altitude.. I would put the average altitude of the US around 500-600 ft,) is what you have to have to make this bullet work
There is very little 8 twist 7mm barrels, most of those are std 4 grove.

I think Berger should make a thicker jacket match 195 EOL hybrid

or more barrel makers getting out of the stone age and making 8 twist 7mm barrels with a easy on jacket 5R or 6 grove rifling. I mean 7mm is getting pretty popular in 1000 yard matches.
It will be months before I can test the 7mm 1:8 tw 5R, I still have reamer and stock to buy and have someone machine it together.

I'm very lucky as I live almost 7700 ft and range I shoot at is 6800ft and I hunt above 9500ft for deer/elk,bear most years.

Glad everything is working out.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I have read those posts, very informing, I see two guys on there having problems with the Berger 195's, but getting flyers, both have 8.0:1 twist barrels, both have a 284 improved (one a walker other a shehane) rifle and both have 4 grove rifles.
The other few people shooting them have good results out of strait 284's and 9 twists

This all raises a red flag for the Berger 195's. It seems they have a narrow wind of performance, meaning you have to spin them to get them stable enough to have your big bad .755 bc and by doing so you run the risk of jacket failure. Most likely why those two guys was getting a flyer on EVERY group. The guy on the form using the 9 twist strait 284 was pushing them at 2620 fps using h4831sc and not a max load. with great results in groups.

This bullet from a 9 twist from average altitude of around 500 ft and 50 deg is going to only have a avg BC of like .695 vs .680 (678) for the 180 w a 9 twist going 200 fps faster

Twist Rate Stability Calculator | Berger Bullets


Spin em out of some of the 8 twists and get flyers cause of jacket failure.
It appears the standard 4 grove rifling may be too harsh on this bullet, and maybe 5R rifling may be a big help. I know Kirby has tested these bullets at extreme speeds. But Kirby is very barrel smart and knows the thin jacket bullets get ate up under standard 3-4 grove rifling and he recommends 5-6 groves for this jacket bullets.

I just ordered a Krieger 1:8 twist 31 inch Heavy varmint contour blank w 5R rifling
for my rifle build. So time will tell. Like I said, I'm setting it u to shoot the 180 Hybrids, so the 195's will be seated a little deeper. I may lose 50 fps not being able to seat the 195's at coal of 3.350 like I initially wanted. , but at least I can shoot the 180's wo a ton of freebore if the 195's fail. I ream and turn my necks so not worried about the donuts.

Seems this bullet has a very limited window of a barrel types it will shoot out of and perform better than the 180 hybrids.

from my research it seems a
5R or 6 grove barrel that is easy on the thin jackets and 8 twist to get your BC, (or be the RARE few that lives over 2500 ft altitude.. I would put the average altitude of the US around 500-600 ft,) is what you have to have to make this bullet work
There is very little 8 twist 7mm barrels, most of those are std 4 grove.

I think Berger should make a thicker jacket match 195 EOL hybrid

or more barrel makers getting out of the stone age and making 8 twist 7mm barrels with a easy on jacket 5R or 6 grove rifling. I mean 7mm is getting pretty popular in 1000 yard matches.
It will be months before I can test the 7mm 1:8 tw 5R, I still have reamer and stock to buy and have someone machine it together.

If the bullets are producing nice, round holes on target, then the jackets aren't coming apart. I think that fella with the Walker just couldn't find a load his barrel liked. My 7WSM has a Krieger 8" twist 4-groove barrel, and shoots the 195's great.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

If the bullets are producing nice, round holes on target, then the jackets aren't coming apart. I think that fella with the Walker just couldn't find a load his barrel liked. My 7WSM has a Krieger 8" twist 4-groove barrel, and shoots the 195's great.

+1

Ive seen no definitive evidence showing jacket failure as a culprit for bens bad accuracy with the 195's. I certainly dont believe that ben thought that either.

I also dont think the rifling pattern in and of itself is responsible for as much of a part as it often recieves in the few jacket failures i have seen.

I wouldnt hesitate to run a berger 195 out of a 1:8 4 grv as fast as a 284 or deviant could push it.

 

[AZShooter]

For what it is worth three groove barrels will reach a point where they will cause damage to VLDs.

I know because it happened to me with a 7 rem mag and a 257 weatherby. Both were hand lapped Lilja. The 7 rem mag had a 1 in 7 twist shooting 180 VLD hunting and issues began around round count 180. Switched to target VLD which worked for a while then they also were being chewed up. When a bullet diverges 8" or more at 100 it is very discouraging. The 257 began damaging the 115 VLDs at a higher round count approx. 500 but it still happened.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

For what it is worth three groove barrels will reach a point where they will cause damage to VLDs.

I know because it happened to me with a 7 rem mag and a 257 weatherby. Both were hand lapped Lilja. The 7 rem mag had a 1 in 7 twist shooting 180 VLD hunting and issues began around round count 180. Switched to target VLD which worked for a while then they also were being chewed up. When a bullet diverges 8" or more at 100 it is very discouraging. The 257 began damaging the 115 VLDs at a higher round count approx. 500 but it still happened.

3grv liljas are notorious for stressing jackets. However its not the fact that there are 3 grooves but in fact how lilja rifles their barrels.

Pm me for details, ive already derailed this thread to far.

 

[scottyd2506]

3grv liljas are notorious for stressing jackets. However its not the fact that there are 3 grooves but in fact how lilja rifles their barrels.

Pm me for details, ive already derailed this thread to far.

I would not say your derailing the thread, as it is part of the topic.
Groves, Even Kirby Allen claims a 6 grove is less stressful on thin jackets vs say a 3 grove., the 195's are not the typical thin jacket varmint bullets, they have a LONG bearing surface. thus more area to fail. Even from the same maker barrels are not always the same. one 4 grove 8 twist my have smaller lands. while another one has larger ones.

also the two guys on the accurate thread who was shooting 284 imp rifles, both had 8 twist 4 grove kriegers. one I remember could not get h4350 or anything to shoot the 195.. plugged in the Target hybrid 180's and bam... everything is ok..
If there never was an issue, then all bergers would be hunting vld's and hunting hybrids with thin jackets.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I would not say your derailing the thread, as it is part of the topic.
Groves, Even Kirby Allen claims a 6 grove is less stressful on thin jackets vs say a 3 grove., the 195's are not the typical thin jacket varmint bullets, they have a LONG bearing surface. thus more area to fail. Even from the same maker barrels are not always the same. one 4 grove 8 twist my have smaller lands. while another one has larger ones.

This is true.

also the two guys on the accurate thread who was shooting 284 imp rifles, both had 8 twist 4 grove kriegers. one I remember could not get h4350 or anything to shoot the 195.. plugged in the Target hybrid 180's and bam... everything is ok..
If there never was an issue, then all bergers would be hunting vld's and hunting hybrids with thin jackets.

I think you are unintentionally taking this out of context. Ben had been shooting the 180's out of a 284 for years and years and knew exactly how to get them to work. When he tested the 195's he saw signs that indicated his barrel didnt like the 195's so he stopped and went back to what he was comfortable with.

Im not saying you cant get a 195 berger jacket to fail. Im just saying if it does its because there is a lot more going on that a certain number of grooves or a particular rate of twist.

Jacket failures are usually associated with more signs than a random flyer or inconsistent grouping.