Savage13
Member
Hey all I currently have a Savage 111 in .257 Roberts sitting in a grey laminate stock. My question is I KINDA want to re-chamber it to .257 AI. What if any are the disadvantages?
.257 ai
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Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
The biggest disadvantage is the 25-06 will still walk it. The next biggest disadvantage is you will have an odd-ball that won't trade or sell well. The advantages are the brass growth, better performance, etc. that all ai. rounds have.
I have a 25wssm and if I wanted a step up I'd go to the 257roy if I had to stay 25 cal. I don't have to stay 25 cal though and don't see any reason a 140-180 at 3300-3400 fps out of my 7stw or 300 rum won't do the same thing as a 120 at 3300fps out of a 25roy.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
gotta disagree in spades.
* the advantage of the .257AI is that you start off with a well known cartridge that is regarded well in the shooting community. Most all the better die makers sell .257AI dies without having to goto high dollar custom stuff (Forster for one). Load data is readilly available in most all the manuals. With this you start out ahead from the get go.
* Now the Ackley improved case is one of his better designs. Ecellent barrel life. Not overbore. Excellent case life, with excellent accuracey.
* Just looking at one of my Hornaday manuals it shows the 28 degree improved version at about 100 fps slower than the 25-06, and 300fps compaired to the .257mag. Now the AA manual shows the Ackley version at 3000fps with a 120 grain bullet(4350 powder), and the 25-06 at 100fps faster. The .257 mag is 3260fps with the same bullet and a lot more powder. We see right away that after about 54 grains of powder the 25 caliber is about done it. (you got 100fps with three to four more grains of powder). And even then they used 3100 which is no longer out there. This tells me that a 25-06AI is a waste of time other than case life.
* now back to sub paragraph number two for further thought. Overbore cartridges are known for short barrell lives. Also known not to be as accurate as efficient cartridges. What we see in the .257 Ackley is about all the quarter bore is good for. Plus there is no serious case forming, and in a pinch you can still shoot factory ammo thru it! To get new cases you simply shoot factory .257 Roberts ammo thru it. I call that a win-win situation.
gary
* the advantage of the .257AI is that you start off with a well known cartridge that is regarded well in the shooting community. Most all the better die makers sell .257AI dies without having to goto high dollar custom stuff (Forster for one). Load data is readilly available in most all the manuals. With this you start out ahead from the get go.
* Now the Ackley improved case is one of his better designs. Ecellent barrel life. Not overbore. Excellent case life, with excellent accuracey.
* Just looking at one of my Hornaday manuals it shows the 28 degree improved version at about 100 fps slower than the 25-06, and 300fps compaired to the .257mag. Now the AA manual shows the Ackley version at 3000fps with a 120 grain bullet(4350 powder), and the 25-06 at 100fps faster. The .257 mag is 3260fps with the same bullet and a lot more powder. We see right away that after about 54 grains of powder the 25 caliber is about done it. (you got 100fps with three to four more grains of powder). And even then they used 3100 which is no longer out there. This tells me that a 25-06AI is a waste of time other than case life.
* now back to sub paragraph number two for further thought. Overbore cartridges are known for short barrell lives. Also known not to be as accurate as efficient cartridges. What we see in the .257 Ackley is about all the quarter bore is good for. Plus there is no serious case forming, and in a pinch you can still shoot factory ammo thru it! To get new cases you simply shoot factory .257 Roberts ammo thru it. I call that a win-win situation.
gary
Sully2
Well-Known Member
Isnt the "06" that the 25-06 is derived from also a well known casing...maybe even BETTER known since its been around for over 100 years??
Granted ther 257 AI is one hell of a cartridge...no one can dispute that...
But looking at one of my manuals I cant find ANY 257 load with a 120 slug that tops 2810 fps and can find at least 7 or 8 loads with the same 120 slug that best 3000 fps. And ALL of those loads are using 47; 49 and 50 grains of various powders...??
In both cases you have to fireform to get their AI version so neither has the upper hand in ease of manufacture.
Sully2
Well-Known Member
Advantage? A little more speed. Disadvantage: Having to fireform casings which is a PITA...
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
*well yes and no to your post. The .257 Roberts is the parent of the .257AI as we already know. But Ned made the .257 case by necking down the 7mm Mauser case. I'm not positive, but think the Mauser case predates the 30-06 case by a year or two.
* looking at the AA loading manual (first one I picked up) I see that 49.5 grains of AA4350 is good for 3020fps out of a 26" barrel (max). There's a faster load with 3100, but they don't make it anymore. This is a true Ackley case instead of the 28 or 30 degree shouldered improved case designs. 47.0 grains of 2700 will get you about 2960fps. I have two Hornaday manuals, and the older one list three rounds in the 2900 fps range using a 28 degree shoulder and a 24" barrel. Ackley also published several 3000fps loads in his books.
* Now last time I looked Forster has .257AI die sets on the shelf without having to pay the premium price for others. That's a little bit of extra cash in your pocket..
Load data for a 25-06AI maybe hard to come by (I have only one set, and it's suspect). But it's easy to come by for the .257. I personally would have opted for the 6.5-06 over the 25-06. Ackley has stated more than once that the main reason for the improved 06 case was to stop brass flow. I seriously doubt that you'll see much more than 3100fps with the improved case as it's already about as much as the .257 bore can handle.
gary
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Actually the .257 Roberts improved is a very easy case to fire form. Just load the case up near max, and you pretty much done. You can simply shoot factory .257 loads in the improved chamber if you want, but I found max loads worked best.
gary
Sully2
Well-Known Member
sure...easy enough. Just like I have to do in my 25-06AI.....but if we didnt HAVE TO...it would be easier still....
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
Or I can use 25wssm or 25-06 ammo in their respective rifles and not waste barrel life fireforming. The 257 ai is a cartridge in search of a reason to exist. Not saying it is bad, it is just moribund with other easier to get and cheaper rounds out there.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I find it exactly the opposite. I cannot for the life of me see any reason for the 25WSM! Besides it's also a poor case design. I personally would prefer the 25/.284 over the 25-06.
Brother of mine was a big quarter bore person (still is), and he shot the 25-06 for several years as well as the standard Roberts and the .257AI in about ten different rifles. I also shot these same rifles quite a lot too. We both came to the same conclusion that the .257 Roberts based cases came out on top every time. WSM cases are over priced and hard to come by in my part of the country, and the necks are too short for the shoulder angle. Also for a cartridge design that's looking for a reason to exist; I find it interesting as it's almost a tie with the .338-06 as the two most often built wildcat chambers (I know the .338-06 is now standardized)
gary
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
I know the wssm's are cartirdges looking for a reason to exist also. I won't quibble with that; the 25-06 is good enough that it didn't need to be fiddled with. I got a wssm simply because I wanted a coyote back in '06 and it was the only one I could find new for a decent price. I wanted a 243 since I have stuff for it but turned away for less than a minute only to have it get bought by someone else.
I got about 500 casings fo0r the 25wssm at $15 a bag before the price went up; I wasn't sure if a pig could fly with it or not. I guess not as all the wssm's are about gone. I really don't care though as I've got my brass and dies.
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
Just saw a couple bags of 100 cases each (used) go for $45 a piece! Looked like nickel plated brass too. One of the best 25 bore rounds I ever saw for what it was is the .250AI. It'll push a 100 grain bullet close to 3200fps with a max load in a 24" barrel; so they claim anyway. I don't doubt 3100fps as my 6/250AI will push 105 grain bullets to about 3100fps max load. That .250 load was 43 grains of 4350. Have only seen two of them, and both were redone .250 Remington 700's.
Myself I'm a big proponet of the 6mm Remington. Just love that round. But have grown kinda fond of the this 6/250AI (needs some slight revisions in the case design to make it a super cartridge.). When I do my barrel set back next spring I plan on setting it up to use .243 cases (already do anyway) with about a .33" neck length. I'll use a 6mmAI reamer that I'll ream the chamber for the 6/250AI head space. Hope to see another 750 to 800 rounds out of that barrel. Also been interested in the same 6mm improved round necked upto .257 (the longer necked version with a 2" length case. (would have to have a new reamer ground for this one)
gary
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
Any of the middle 24 and 25-26 cal are pretty good little rounds and really are better than their exterior ballistics suggest they should be on critters. Basically anything 6ppc to 6.5-06 is a good starter rifle as long as you are not slaying dragons. I prefer to not have to play with brass forming and custom stuff for the most part. I don't have a machine shop so it could get spendy quick.
Did you mean wsm or wsaum? I have a 25 Bobcat ( 25 x 270 WSM } had my own reamer cut so i named it after my company. I feel its very efficient i can get 257 whby. vel. out of a short action. Have 2 of the 25x284's also very efficient chambering.
