1911 Kaboom! Diagnosis help? (and always wear eye pro!).

[entoptics]

Had a catastrophic failure today, and am hoping I can get some diagnosis feedback. I'm fine, besides a mildly fragged face. Couple bloody pin pricks,and a chip in my very expensive prescription safety glasses, right in line with my right eyeball...

It has some characteristics of firing out of battery, but also potentially just a bad reload...

This is a gun I fondle a lot, but really don't shoot much. I'm a tupperware guy, but I'm not a complete newb with 1911s either.

Here's what I know...

0) Series 70 Colt.

1) Ammo was literally a "mixed bag" of trash I found lying about during a recent cleaning spree. The round that Kaboom!ed was an ancient JHP of some sort (XTP?). They were probably bullets made by my mom's cousin (more on him later) in the early 90s. I did fire 3 magazines of my own relatively recent reloads, spicey +P 200 gr XTPs, with no issues whatsoever, right before the kaboom!.

2) Magazine was ejected, hands and fingers were charred from explosion escaping out of every gap in the frame (slide, safety, trigger, etc). Fingers were numb like a firecracker had gone off in my paw, but otherwise no damage.

3) Gun jammed up after slide had only traveled a 1/4 inch backward. Had to beat it open with a dowel rod. Before getting it open, I could see down in the action, and the case was stuck in the chamber, with the primer protruding out of the case, resting against the breach face.

4) Case failed in a typical "unsupported kaboom!" manner, but also split about halfway up.

5) Hard to say for sure, as I dropped the f@&%ing thing like a hot potato due to the explosive outgassing, but the recoil didn't seem particularly potent. Bullet hit the steel plate too.

6) I installed a beaver tail grip safety, heavier recoil spring, and maybe a new trigger/sear? Can't remember for sure whether I messed with trigger or not. See below though...

7) Same nutbag 2nd cousin who made the ammo in the 90s, "tuned it up" for me when I wasn't paying attention, after I'd brought it to him to install some Trijicon night sights. He did some filing and grinding that I wasn't sure I approved of, resulting in a too light trigger pull. Front sight also fell off after 4 rounds, so perhaps you're getting an idea of the "quality of work" he's capable of. He had just taken a class on 1911 gunsmithing, was a gun store owner, and also the guy who got me into shooting when I was too little to remember, so at the time (naive younger me), I thought it was all OK...

Here's a picture of the case...

Gun is superficially just fine, and functions as expected. I'm obviously not gonna shoot it till I've investigated things more thoroughly, and regardless of what I find, I'm gonna pitch all the crusty old scrap rounds I have.

So, anybody have experience enough to guide me along the path to feeling safe to shoot it again?

BTW, I'm not stupid, and I don't intend to shoot it till I'm certain it's safe, so "Take it to a smith" is completely unhelpful advice. Right now, I want opinions on what to consider as the source of failure. How I deal with that information is my business...

 

[Rhett Crider]

Re-read your own post. Your answer is in the first one.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

looks over pressure... the primer pocket wouldn't be destroyed on out of battery. Double/overcharge or obstruction in barrel... Squib prior shot?

 

[Idaholandho]

If I have this right, 1. you found some ammo 2. You aren't sure who loaded it 3. You put it in a firearm and fired it.
I'm glad you are ok, but this is a blatant disregard for your safety and anyone else near you.
And the irony of the last paragraph is well, ironic -

BTW, I'm not stupid, and I don't intend to shoot it till I'm certain it's safe, so "Take it to a smith" is completely unhelpful advice. Right now, I want opinions on what to consider as the source of failure. How I deal with that information is my business...

You made it an entire forums business btw.
Double charge?
Case that was already separating?
Wrong powder?
C'mon man...

 

[brcfo_outdoors]

Re-read your own post. Your answer is in the first one.

100% this.

The case splitting and primer ejecting are all indications of too much pressure in the casing, my guess is from an overcharge of powder in a hand load. Moral of the story is don't shoot other people's hand loads.

Superficially the handgun may appear fine, but I would worry about the damage you can't see like micro fracturing and structural weakening. To my knowledge 1911's aren't built with more modern methods of handling an over pressure event, that is why the gas blew out every hole. I would take a hard look at the barrel and the thinner regions of the slide around the ejection port, and probably replace the barrel just by default.

 

[entoptics]

No squib or obstruction (all shots hit steel up to and including Kaboom!).

I'm familiar with "over pressure", but never had something of this magnitude.

Primer pocket was traumatized for sure. The fact that the primer was left sitting against the breach face, and the downward blast from the back of the case, made me wonder about out of battery. I was present for an out of battery kaboom! in an M74 (8mm AK), and that had similar results to this, with the back end of the case blasted out and down.

If I have this right, 1. you found some ammo 2. You aren't sure who loaded it 3. You put it in a firearm and fired it.
I'm glad you are ok, but this is a blatant disregard for your safety and anyone else near you.
And the irony of the last paragraph is well, ironic -

You made it an entire forums business btw.
Double charge?
Case that was already separating?
Wrong powder?
C'mon man...

I see your point, but you can step off your horse...

Over the course of 30 years, I have fired ~10,000 rounds of ammo in various calibers, without issues, from this same fellow. He's a bit of a nutter, but also has a gun store, reloads semi-commercially, and was for a long time the most expert person I knew regarding firearms. I now know a lot more than I did, but it's not like I found an open soda in an airport bathroom and drank it. This was just various ammo in bags and boxes, accumulated over the years, that I compiled to "get rid of" by plinking...

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

The only time I've destroyed a primer pocket like that was during load development on my 7rum when things were going from good to bad very quickly because of a non standard chambering (short throat/ fast twist/ skim turn necks). I keep the blown out cases as a reminder not to mess around with that rifle and just shoot the developed load.

If all shots were on target I suspect a double charge as the culprit. The 45 runs mild pressures and the case is basically a cut down 30-06 with thin side walls. It took a lot of pop to take that pocket out.

 

[Idaholandho]

No squib or obstruction (all shots hit steel up to and including Kaboom!).

I'm familiar with "over pressure", but never had something of this magnitude.

Primer pocket was traumatized for sure. The fact that the primer was left sitting against the breach face, and the downward blast from the back of the case, made me wonder about out of battery. I was present for an out of battery kaboom! in an M74 (8mm AK), and that had similar results to this, with the back end of the case blasted out and down.


I see your point, but you can step off your horse...

Over the course of 30 years, I have fired ~10,000 rounds of ammo in various calibers, without issues, from this same fellow. He's a bit of a nutter, but also has a gun store, reloads semi-commercially, and was for a long time the most expert person I knew regarding firearms. I now know a lot more than I did, but it's not like I found an open soda in an airport bathroom and drank it. This was just various ammo in bags and boxes, accumulated over the years, that I compiled to "get rid of" by plinking...

Off my horse?
If you will reread his post, he is not sure who loaded it. Allegedly it came from his suspect Mom's Cousin(later referred to as a nutbag by OP), allegedly. Not to mention OP referred to the ammo as a mixed bag of trash and his Cousin, a "nutbag".
2. The "expert person" that you refer that you have shot 10,000 rounds does not sound like an apples to apples comparison. I load for a couple friends, have for years. Again, he wasn't sure who loaded it, much less a "nutbag".
You also refer to drinking a soda from a bathroom which I suspect is sarcasm and poor sarcasm in a situation that could of seriously harmed OP. What if he found the ammo in an airport bathroom? Ok to shoot? What's the difference? He still found ammo of unknown origin and fired it.
You're ok with this.
So please go on about the horse I'm on.

 

[entoptics]

Off my horse?
If you will reread his post, he is not sure who loaded it. Allegedly it came from his suspect Mom's Cousin(later referred to as a nutbag by OP), allegedly. Not to mention OP referred to the ammo as a mixed bag of trash and his Cousin, a "nutbag".
2. The "expert person" that you refer that you have shot 10,000 rounds does not sound like an apples to apples comparison. I load for a couple friends, have for years. Again, he wasn't sure who loaded it, much less a "nutbag".
You also refer to drinking a soda from a bathroom which I suspect is sarcasm and poor sarcasm in a situation that could of seriously harmed OP. What if he found the ammo in an airport bathroom? Ok to shoot? What's the difference? He still found ammo of unknown origin and fired it.
You're ok with this.
So please go on about the horse I'm on.

I'm the OP. I was describing the source of the ammo (nutbag/early mentor). The Soda thing was not sarcasm, it was an analogy.

I'm not OK with this. My record of no catastrophic gun failures, after 40 years and >>50,000 rounds from BBs to BMGs has come to an end.

As I'm not a 1911 expert, I posted in this forum to get information on possible causes, particularly the possibility of firing out of battery, which is a much more dangerous scenario than a 1 in 50,000 ammo failure.

 

[tcmikey]

Glad you're ok.

 

[Idaholandho]

I'm the OP. I was describing the source of the ammo (nutbag/early mentor). The Soda thing was not sarcasm, it was an analogy.

I'm not OK with this. My record of no catastrophic gun failures, after 40 years and >>50,000 rounds from BBs to BMGs has come to an end.

As I'm not a 1911 expert, I posted in this forum to get information on possible causes, particularly the possibility of firing out of battery, which is a much more dangerous scenario than a 1 in 50,000 ammo failure.

I understand yet, you still aren't 100% who loaded the ammunition as indicated in the OP.
Not being a "1911 expert" has nothing to do with the unsafe situation you put yourself in regardless of the rounds downrange and your experience. And, you described him as a nutbag and described the ammo as "trash". I can't read your mind nor do I know the history except for the story you typed and the picture you painted of his "filing and grinding" in which you may not of approved of - pretty specific imo.
I sincerely am glad you are safe and healthy and we can guess what happened for 20 pages.
I think you know why we shouldn't be discussing this and how it could of been avoided in the first place. Props to you for sharing your story as it may teach others. Best of luck and make smart decisions when operating a firearm.
I'll take my horse and leave now.

 

[tobnpr]

Tear it down, inspect for damage.
You said "don't tell me to take it to a smith", so I assume you've got the expertise to perform the inspection.

It's either the ammo, or the pistol, right?
You have ZERO information on the ammunition, so no point in even going there. No other rounds from the same "batch". You have no clue what it was.
What you can do, is rule OUT the firearm if you can confirm proper function.

Assuming you can do that, guess what that leaves?

 

[LRNut]

I can't add anything to the post mortem discussion but I will say your reference to eye protection is spot on.

Some years ago I was shooting a 7STW and a 300 RUM at LR. I accidentally loaded a 7STW in a 300 RUM; I did that once before and had no issues other than a fire formed case and a miss. However, in this case, pun intended, the 7STW case completely ruptured up the side. I had gas and powder flying into my face and was bleeding profusely. I went to the ER where they performed at CAT scan; I had a powder fragment in my eyeball which my optometrist later decided to leave in there. I wasn't wearing safety glasses, but I was wearing hard contacts, which my doctor said likely saved the vision in my right eye (you could clearly see a small clamshell fragment missing from the lens).

Not the first stupid thing I have done, but if it causes even one person to wear safety glasses, worth it to me to post. Wear eye protection!

 

[ndking1126]

Based on the picture, out of battery seems like the obvious culprit. I've never held a cartridge with too much powder (not knowingly, at least), but I'd guess a double charge would be heavy enough that you'd notice the difference when you picked it up. If the problem was just too much powder, you typically see the barrel and/or frame fracture or bulge.

Sounds like I know less about 1911s than you do, but shells that endure being fired out of battery generally all have the same visual characteristics regardless of the weapon type they are fired out of. I wouldn't even begin to speculate how it occurred.

It looks like the shell extractor contacted the the shell on the bottom left (as pictured here), and the ruptured part of the case was pointing straight down (at the time of firing). This would explain the charred fingers. Also, the 1911 barrel extends farther on the top than on the bottom, which would have made it easier for the percussion to exit downward.

I claim no expertise, and am only offering a somewhat informed opinion. Glad you are OK, and thanks for the reminder on how important gun safety is.