“Your groups are too small” vs barrel life

It's hard for me to listen to anybody talk for the length of time these people dedicate to their "broadcasts", even when taking my meds.!
At least with numbered chapters you can pick the interesting parts, and cut out the promo. 👍

AND: when a barrel is considered loose or broken in, some of the big mags available these days can change a heap in 30-50 rounds from erosion.
All of them will change to some degree, we know.
At the very least, don't start any kind of serious development until a barrel has appeared to settle down. No need to chase your tail sooner, we know every one is different.
 
Mike D Texas said:
I agree many shooters are 1 MOA shooters over a large sample size but for what we are doing, I don't think it matters that much.
Click to expand...
It does matter. Groups get bigger with more shots because you start to see more of the worse than average shots. Until you pull the trigger you have no way of knowing if a shot will be better or worse than average. When you only care about 1 shot what matters is how your gun performs at worst, not on average. If your hunting rifle shoots 1 MOA over many shots (which is pretty darn good for a hunting rifle) it's irresponsible to treat it as a 1/2 MOA gun because you can print 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups.
 
When a "new to me" rifle/cartridge has been acquired, about 80% of my load development work is generally done before a single shot is fired, or components bought. IMO, many of the so-called "new" Hornady cartridges are simply facsimiles of older cartridges. While this process of researching this info has changed quite a bit (due to advances in social media) over the years, you can rest assured that there are knowledgeable/credible shooters out there that have developed very viable loads with that cartridge for either hunting, competition or both. Why re-invent the wheel? The key is find a few loads/parameters that that have similarity of parameters, and fit your criteria/requirements, I'll test them during barrel break-in( 20-100 rounds), and usually have a promising load or two for refinement…..another 100 rounds or so. …Tested for short/long range accracy/precision, consistency, and cold/warm bore accuracy requirements for LRH,(or in the case of PRS, 10 shot /hot bore accuracy). If I'm not there by 200 rounds or so….the barrel is usually scrapped. After years of working with both hunting, and competition rifles(with frequent barrel replacements), refinement of the original load with a replacement barrel is generally accomplished shortly after barrel break-in with a few tests(charge wt, etc). My test groups are generally 3-5 shots…..statistically viable for my purposes….The enemy of good enough..is perfect!
Just my thoughts….
 
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nksmfamjp said:
If I get the Hornady theory of group building, it sounds like shoot larger sample sizes to more precisely determine the accuracy of the load in the barrel.

So, you need to shoot something to find pressure, right. So you have to shoot ~30 to determine this, especially shooting non-std cartridges, oal's and jump distances.

Then you would shoot 20-50 round groups to set powder charge for the bullet. Then seating depth. Then primer type, Then neck tension, then crimp, then primer depth, then repeat for several bullets to get match level results.

Doing all this for several bullets and what are we talking 1000 rounds of barrel life? How much is left for match shooting. Does this mean I can develop on one barrel and apply results to the next 2-3 barrels? Maybe.

The other side develops off 3-5 round groups, gets to a load in under 300 rounds, but struggles with things like load tune at long range, load tune range to range, other issues. The one thing this group doesn't do is chase results and then running out of barrel life.

How do you combine the 2 to get a "best value"?
Click to expand...
In general, after experimenting/testing with a single particular cartridge, in multiple guns/barrels, I've narrowed down an "optimal" load…that shoots best in multiple guns/barrels with only a seating depth adjustment to tune it in.
I found this to apply over multiple cartridges…(22-250, 243win, 25-06, 270win)….that should date me.
Now I'm finding loads with these very long highest BC bullet in the latest cartridges are somewhat barrel specific and often work only for a particular barrel.
 
To answer the OP…shop first for a quality barrel or a gun mounted with a quality barrel. Reloading development and time is significantly reduced.

Being able to pile up 10 or more shots at or under 1 MOA at 100 has worked great for me. I fill my freezers every winter.
 
DUCKMAN11 said:
I don't think the hornady method does anything but sell more bullets! 2 shots is all you really need for a particular load. If it won't shoot sub moa with 2 shots.....3 ain't gonna make it better. Yes your sample size will be larger therefore your data will be more accurate. But im not shooting groups to shoot groups. I'm developing a sub moa hunting load.
Click to expand...

2 shot groups tell you nothing. A few 5 shot groups are better.

So you are telling me if I have a rifle that shoots consistent 1-1/2" five shot groups, if I stop after 2 and those two happen to be 1/2" apart I have a 1/2 MOA gun?

I just need to stop shooting when I get the group size I want.
 
Hard H2O said:
2 shot groups tell you nothing. A few 5 shot groups are better.

So you are telling me if I have a rifle that shoots consistent 1-1/2" five shot groups, if I stop after 2 and those two happen to be 1/2" apart I have a 1/2 MOA gun?

I just need to stop shooting when I get the group size I want.
Click to expand...
You missed the point of two shot groups. They are best utilized when searching for powder charge and seating depth. They will get you to what works for your gun quickly. Once the two shot group identifies what works, you can shoot 5 or more shot groups to validate what the gun/load/shooter can achieve
 
For hunting try one shot a day at the same target for 10 days in a row. That is your animal killing MOA.
I have an old factory Rem 700 BDL in 7 mag I bought used in the 80's. It had been hand loaded pretty hot before I got it. You can keep her at 1 MOA and under if you let her cool good between shots. If you start in and shoot two three shots groups quickly she opens up bad.
Almost guaranteed that the 2nd shot after cold bore will be about 1 MOA higher than the first. So this old factory barreled gal is not a great barrel, but she is one that is a dang good hunting barrel just because that first shot is all that counts, and knowing where the 2nd shot will be helps also.
 
Greyfox said:
When a "new to me" rifle/cartridge has been acquired, about 80% of my load development work is generally done before a single shot is fired, or components bought. IMO, many of the so-called "new" Hornady cartridges are simply facsimiles of older cartridges. While this process of researching this info has changed quite a bit (due to advances in social media) over the years, you can rest assured that there are knowledgeable/credible shooters out there that have developed very viable loads with that cartridge for either hunting, competition or both. Why re-invent the wheel? The key is find a few loads/parameters that that have similarity of parameters, and fit your criteria/requirements, I'll test them during barrel break-in( 20-100 rounds), and usually have a promising load or two for refinement…..another 100 rounds or so. …Tested for short/long range accracy/precision, consistency, and cold/warm bore accuracy requirements for LRH,(or in the case of PRS, 10 shot /hot bore accuracy). If I'm not there by 200 rounds or so….the barrel is usually scrapped. After years of working with both hunting, and competition rifles(with frequent barrel replacements), refinement of the original load with a replacement barrel is generally accomplished shortly after barrel break-in with a few tests(charge wt, etc). My test groups are generally 3-5 shots…..statistically viable for my purposes….The enemy of good enough..is perfect!
Just my thoughts….
Click to expand...
I think this hits the nail on the head from start to finish. Well said Greyfox.

Good components (action, barrel, brass, bullets & powder) eliminate a lot of, if not all of load development, from the get go.

I do think you can powder tune at long range though. But it does require some extra effort, and you to decide if it's worth it for your goals or not.
 
Greyfox said:
When a "new to me" rifle/cartridge has been acquired, about 80% of my load development work is generally done before a single shot is fired, or components bought. IMO, many of the so-called "new" Hornady cartridges are simply facsimiles of older cartridges. While this process of researching this info has changed quite a bit (due to advances in social media) over the years, you can rest assured that there are knowledgeable/credible shooters out there that have developed very viable loads with that cartridge for either hunting, competition or both. Why re-invent the wheel? The key is find a few loads/parameters that that have similarity of parameters, and fit your criteria/requirements, I'll test them during barrel break-in( 20-100 rounds), and usually have a promising load or two for refinement…..another 100 rounds or so. …Tested for short/long range accracy/precision, consistency, and cold/warm bore accuracy requirements for LRH,(or in the case of PRS, 10 shot /hot bore accuracy). If I'm not there by 200 rounds or so….the barrel is usually scrapped. After years of working with both hunting, and competition rifles(with frequent barrel replacements), refinement of the original load with a replacement barrel is generally accomplished shortly after barrel break-in with a few tests(charge wt, etc). My test groups are generally 3-5 shots…..statistically viable for my purposes….The enemy of good enough..is perfect!
Just my thoughts….
Click to expand...
Amen. Take the 6.5 creed. A little research shows that H4350 is the most accurate powder for most people. The 6 creed as well. If your barrel wont shoot decent groups with a 140 and a 210m primer I doubt anything else will shoot better but you could waste a lot of components. I did an 8 shot pressure ladder and all 8 shots were inside 1" over 2.4 grains of powder. Picked a charge weight and just started shooting groups paying attention to where the first cold shot went as well. Done.
 
I think the most important part of reloading for short barrel life rifles is to be completely confident in yourself and your shooting platform. Without that, your just wasting primers
 
Hard H2O said:
2 shot groups tell you nothing. A few 5 shot groups are better.

So you are telling me if I have a rifle that shoots consistent 1-1/2" five shot groups, if I stop after 2 and those two happen to be 1/2" apart I have a 1/2 MOA gun?

I just need to stop shooting when I get the group size I want.
Click to expand...
That's not what I said at all!! If you shoot 2 shots that are 1.5" apart.....a third shot is not going to DECREASE that 1.5" group size. If I'm looking for 1/2" 5 shot groups and shot 1 and 2 are 2moa....guess what...that load is not going to shoot half MOA! Even if shot 1 was 2" high and the next 4 where in the bullseye in the same hole you'd still have a 2" group.
 
I do not see the correlation of shooting one maybe two shots (like hunting) to shooting a 10 shot string (umm never hunting).

If the rifle performs to your expectations with two shots (cold and follow up, like hunting) who cares what it will do with ten.

I do however see correlation what it will do with said two shots over the course of multiple shooting sessions, cold/follow up (like hunting).

As soon as Hornady gives the attention to detail to their components as they have with me spending them on "large" aggragate data, maybe I will give them a little more attention.

I believe this may be more relevant to the weshootprs100roundmatches.com
 
They're not telling you you need to do 30rd groups for everything. They're just saying that 3-5 shot groups doesn't actually show the true accuracy of a system and many times doesn't provide the true zero location.

I'd just start with 5 or 10rd groups. If it doesn't meet expectations, then move on with a large change like powder/bullet combo. If a load shoots 1moa after 5 rounds..... It's definitely not going to get any better with more rounds!

The only time I'd do a 30rd group is for establishing a really confident zero and determining a more realistic view of load accuracy when I'm done. I don't get deeply involved in load dev though. Many minor changes don't amount to enough to really make a difference.
 

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