What is a "flinch" worth in MOA ?

There's been some good threads and discussions about the price some shooters potentially pay for using a bigger cartridge,
the price is flinch and loss of accuracy.

Now I know you can't really quantify this, but how much MOA increase, say at 100 yds, do you suppose a flinch would cost you ?

Obviously at longer yardage the flinch error is more.

Also the bigger the cartridge powder grains, more potential flinch.

Any guesses / ideas ? One man's flinch is not another man's flinch !

hemiford said:

There's been some good threads and discussions about the price some shooters potentially pay for using a bigger cartridge,
the price is flinch and loss of accuracy.

Now I know you can't really quantify this, but how much MOA increase, say at 100 yds, do you suppose a flinch would cost you ?

Obviously at longer yardage the flinch error is more.

Also the bigger the cartridge powder grains, more potential flinch.

Any guesses / ideas ? One man's flinch is not another man's flinch !

Click to expand...

A flinch is a flinch that is directly proportional to an increase in caliber/chambering/bullet weight, powder charge, etc., and error.

I developed a flinch after a shot at an awkward angle resulted in a scar on the forehead by my left eye. It was worth at least 1.5moa if not more. Took a good while to retrain myself.

hemiford said:

Any guesses / ideas ? One man's flinch is not another man's flinch !

Click to expand...

50MoA @ 100…a miss is a miss.
How many MoA does a trigger jerk cost?
How many MoA does an awkward uncomfortable rest cost?
How much MoA does a slipping bi-bod cost just as the trigger is broken?
All of these scenarios I have experienced, all resulted in misses.
How many MoA does heavy breathing and high heart rate cost?
Haven't experienced that personally, but have witnessed it several times, including 'buck fever', which I don't experience ever.

Flinches are hard to overcome, I shoot really big cartridges, my 505 Gibbs was the cartridge that almost got me flinching again after curing my flinch 30 years ago from 2 Ruger Zyrtel stocked M77 MK II in 300WM and 338WM, these were brutal from the bench and after 30 rounds from each in a day, I suffered an almost incurable flinch, even my 25-06 had me flinching after shooting those rifles. I sold them both soon after…

Cheers.

A flinch can most often be measured as a full miss.

Watched a young man miss a buck at 35 yards because of his flinch. That's a lot of MOA,s. His dad was the cause of his flinching issues. I never got him out of it, and I tried over a whole summer. Only thing he didn't flinch with was a 22LR. I began to think that it was sound related. But he is in another state now. Hope he gets out of it.

Bingo. I believe you are close. Blast in conjunction with recoil induces the worst of flinch.
Hearing protection isn't taken as seriously as it should and nothing under 34db rating should be used.
There are too many junk level ear phones out there with 20 something decibel ratings.

Every flinch or jerk of the trigger creates a different effect.

In my experience pretty much everyone I know who has developed a flinch came from starting out with rifles that were just too big for a young hunter. My cousin was put behind a light 30-06 way before he was big enough to handle to recoil and before he developed the skills to handle the rifle. Took years to correct his poor fundamentals and flinch. Finally had to start hunting deer with a 22 Valkyrie and shoot a ton to lose the flinch. No he can handle more, but took a ton of work on small calibers.

I'm glad I had a wise father that started me out behind a 243 for my first year. I got a little more size and set me up with a 7x57 Mauser. Once I was developed and had good fundamentals I got a 7 mag. With all the good habits I had developed shooting smaller calibers I was able to transition to mags and have never had an issue with flinch. But I definitely see to many new shooters being set up with guns that they aren't ready for and it is a bummer because its not setting up for success.

Hard to compensate for a flinch as they are not consistent.

A flinch does not happen in reaction to the shot but in anticipation of it. Humans simply can't react fast enough to affect the bullet. Flinch is the body reacting to the history of what it knows is coming.
The "surprise" breaking of the trigger is the only cure. I am one of the many High Masters on this board and we may all explain it a little different but we are all trying to explain the same thing.
FLINCH is all in your mind!

I've seen flinches in new hunters so bad that they miss a 12" target at 50 yards. Almost every time, it's because they started out shooting a large-ish centerfire rifle, skipping the normal process of starting with rimfires and working their way up. Usually, a couple boxes of 22 LR and some instruction fixes the flinching.

Dummy drills are a great tool to help the shooter identify/feel what a flinch actually is. Once they know how it feels without actually going bang, they are able to start to correct.

Snap in, snap in, snap in...earn the live rounds....

Best medicine for flinch? A .243 if it will take care of the critter you are after. But seriously, I think it has a real deleterious effect on accuracy, probably a minute or more for me and this becomes very real when trying to hit groundhogs at longer ranges. There are some training techniques to mitigate it and I've tried them. I still catch myself doing it. I think the best remedy for me has been a good predictable trigger weight and a clean break. When I go out to the range, I always dry fire a couple times between groups to reacquaint myself with the break. Then I get on target and try to focus on following through such that the flinch occurs after the bullet leaves the muzzle. Most of the time, I can do it but I know before I even look through the spotting scope when I mess it up!

MagnumManiac said:

50MoA @ 100…a miss is a miss.
How many MoA does a trigger jerk cost?
How many MoA does an awkward uncomfortable rest cost?
How much MoA does a slipping bi-bod cost just as the trigger is broken?
All of these scenarios I have experienced, all resulted in misses.
How many MoA does heavy breathing and high heart rate cost?
Haven't experienced that personally, but have witnessed it several times, including 'buck fever', which I don't experience ever.

Flinches are hard to overcome, I shoot really big cartridges, my 505 Gibbs was the cartridge that almost got me flinching again after curing my flinch 30 years ago from 2 Ruger Zyrtel stocked M77 MK II in 300WM and 338WM, these were brutal from the bench and after 30 rounds from each in a day, I suffered an almost incurable flinch, even my 25-06 had me flinching after shooting those rifles. I sold them both soon after…

Cheers.

Click to expand...

A great many years ago. A friend and I would go to the range every weekend. I would be the dumby behind some of his rifles to test for grouping. The 375 H & H in Ruger #1 kind of put a stop to that. **** trigger I believe it took an 8lbs hammer to get them or go off. He also had a 338 WM in a Ruger 77 mark 11. I finally put a trigger in it for him. That help a lot. I could get some really tight groups with it. He sold it to me a few years later. I had a muzzle brake place on it. That was the smartest thing I ever did. It's now my go to rifle for big game. Running 200gr Nosler AB at 3200fps. The really like that set up. It's my pet load for it.
The one thing I have found over the years. Is a very light trigger really help in touching off a round. Don't have to hold the rifle as tightly, so less movement.