Elk Terminal Performance Philosophies

MoreSalsa said:
Thanks. So to clarify this, which bullets do and do not "have the integrity to penetrate heavy bone without fragmentation, major weight loss, or deformation" in elk in your view? I think that is where the disagreement with the Philosophy 2 crowd might be, though I'm not sure.
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For lighter calibers to penetrate they need a higher Sectional Density. Typically for elk a sectional density of at least .275 is recommended. If its difficult to find that, or "close enough"... in your caliber avoid the quartering shots where penetration is more critical.

Maybe look for "long for caliber" bullets like a monolithic...
 
skinny pedal said:
i would much rather poke a hole and explode the heart or lungs than blow both shoulders up and waste all the meat
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It is also the responsibility of the hunter to choose a bullet that will not "blow-up" both shoulders!

Yes, some blood shot meat, perhaps bone fragments creating a multitude of small wound channels ……but a .338 WM with a decently constructed bullet should not "blow up" shoulders.

I'll venture to suggest that a very high velocity bullet of smaller caliber, frangible bullet will create more tissue damage/blood shot meat that will a .338 WM.

It is also the responsibility of the hunter to be able to accurately shoot whatever cartridge they choose to hunt with. Most any hunter, male or female, should be able to handle the recoil of (for example) the .338WM…..assuming that the rifle has proper fit, is not a "lightweight", and has a quality recoil absorbing recoil pad.

My wife has made some pretty darn respectable shots on game with her 9 pound .338 WM …..and still cook a good meal. But, she's not comfortable shooting game beyond 400 yards, though I'm reasonably certain that 500 is well within her capabilities.

You don't have to be "super human" to shoot a heavy recoil rifle"! memtb
 
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memtb said:
There are in fact several. Some bullets of "partition" or A Frame design can adequately meet that requirement. Most monos will easily meet that requirement, provided that the hunter/shooter does not forsake sectional density for the often sought after….."speed of light" bullet.

The primary liming factor when comparing most cup and cores to a limited expansion or mono bullet is velocity at impact. This plays right into your hypothesis that the etical hunter(my term) must stay within the effective expansion velocities for his/her bullet. Much the same in that an ethical hunter/shooter should be capable of placing the bullet where it needs to go!

Have I adequately answered your question! memtb
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In part, but which bullets do you think do not make the grade?

I think a lot of Philosophy 2 people think that even match bullets (and certainly the hybrids like eld-x and Berger hybrid) do a good enough job on penetrating bone. I remember one thread I read where the poster talked about how an elk scapula is actually not that thick and is easily penetrable by any hunting or match bullet. And I remember seeing stories of big, high velocity bullets running into problems with hitting bone, which I think is cited as a reason to think that maybe bad bullet performance upon hitting bone is not really a matter of the bullet not being tough or big enough.

Me ... I don't think I know enough to say at this point. I think on one end of the equation, I am confident that big mono bullets can provide devastating penetration. I've witnessed that on deer and it's pretty dramatic. So I would think they would do really well if they hit a bone in an elk. But on the other end will a 6mm match bullet be neutralized by an elk rib or scapula where a 7mm 160 gr. Accubond would go on through that same bone and take out both lungs? I don't know, but my wild guess is that it would probably do okay on a rib ... other bones, not so sure. And even if the answer is yes on non-rib bones, the question still remains of whether you should try to address that issue through trying to be as accurate as possible (so that the worst you'll run into is a rib) vs. launching a projectile that might make up for a bad shot but is harder to shoot as accurately.
 
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MoreSalsa said:
In part, but which bullets do you think do not make the grade?
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Varmint bullets...
If you pick a bullet designed for deer your there. Try to find one with the highest sectional density and your better off.

I know you dont want to disclose, but the general philosophy of this has been laid out. If your using a light for caliber for elk, knowing the cartridge will help others here help you pick the best bullet, or factory load if you don't handload. Handloading will give you better options.
 
MoreSalsa said:
In part, but which bullets do you think do not make the grade?

I think a lot of Philosophy 2 people think that even match bullets (and certainly the hybrids like eld-x and Berger hybrid) do a good enough job on penetrating bone. I remember one thread I read where the poster talked about how an elk scapula is actually not that thick and is easily penetrable by any hunting or match bullet. And I remember seeing stories of big, high velocity bullets running into problems with hitting bone, which I think is cited as a reason to think that maybe bad bullet performance upon hitting bone is not really a matter of the bullet not being tough or big enough.

Me ... I don't think I know enough to say at this point. I think on one end of the equation, I am confident that big tough bullets can provide devastating penetration. I've witnessed that on deer and it's pretty dramatic. So I would think they would do really well if they hit a bone in an elk. But on the other end will a 6mm match bullet be neutralized by an elk rib or scapula where a 7mm 160 gr. Accubond would go on through that same bone and take out both lungs? I don't know, but my wild guess is that it would probably do okay on a rib ... other bones, not so sure. And even if the answer is yes on non-rib bones, the question still remains of whether you should try to address that issue through trying to be as accurate as possible (so that the worst you'll run into is a rib) vs. launching a projectile that might make up for a bad shot but is harder to shoot as accurately.
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These are my qualifiers for an elk cartridge/bullet.

First off, it doesn't have to be a large diameter bullet, let's say it doesn't have to be greater than .30 caliber. But (for me) the bullet must maintain it's integrity such as I described in my earlier post, and have enough sectional density to full-length an elk…..end to end! Also, can maintain that integrity from literally "point blank" range to it's maximum range for adequate expansion! This can be had in cartridges of less than .30 caliber……it's all about the bullet!

All of the above means near nothing on the perfect behind the shoulder, broadside shot…..but I don't live in a perfectly world!

I believe that Bob Hagel's quote in my signature line covers hunting very well! And today's much improved bullets have made that easier to accomplish! memtb
 
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memtb said:
It is also the responsibility of the hunter to choose a bullet that will not "blow-up" both shoulders!

Yes, some blood shot meat, perhaps bone fragments creating a multitude of small wound channels ……but a .338 WM with a decently constructed bullet should not "blow up" shoulders.

I'll venture to suggest that a very high velocity bullet of smaller caliber will create more tissue damage/blood shot meat that will a .338 WM.

It is also the responsibility of the hunter to be able to accurately shoot whatever cartridge they choose to hunt with. Most any hunter, male or female, should be able to handle the recoil of (for example) the .338WM…..assuming that the rifle has proper fit, is not a "lightweight", and has a quality recoil absorbing recoil pad.

My wife has made some pretty darn respectable shots on game with her 9 pound .338 WM …..and still cook a good meal. But, she's not comfortable shooting game beyond 400 yards, though I'm reasonably certain that 500 is well within her capabilities.

You don't have to be "super human" to shoot a heavy recoil rifle"! memtb
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Yeah I agree with all that but you are kind of running into one of the specific issues underlying all of this, which is that I want to be able to reach out to 400 and 500 yards. I bet if your wife started shooting a 9 pound rifle in a low recoil caliber, she'd be comfortable out to 500 yards and beyond. As I try to extend my max accurate range in the field, I think I'll have a much easier time and a lot better results if I am using my moderate recoil deer rifle.
 
MoreSalsa said:
Yeah I agree with all that but you are kind of running into one of the specific issues underlying all of this, which is that I want to be able to reach out to 400 and 500 yards. I bet if your wife started shooting a 9 pound rifle in a low recoil caliber, she'd be comfortable out to 500 yards and beyond. As I try to extend my max accurate range in the field, I think I'll have a much easier time and a lot better results if I am using my moderate recoil deer rifle.
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It's not so much the rifle/cartridge choice……but she also follows the 💩 happens philosophy. With increased range….the possibilities of unforeseen things than make an otherwise perfect shot into a crippling wound!

A limb suddenly snapping, another hunter (not see) can either spoke the animal through sight, sound, or smell, or in some areas a predator appearing inside the animal's comfort zone……all unhknown/unseen by the shooter.

Any of the above things can cause an animal to suddenly move, causing a misplaced shot. I believe that this possibility is enhanced at longer ranges.

So to better answer your question, she has wounded animals and seen animals wounded by other hunters…..she simply wants to minimize that possibility!

Intimate familiarity with your rifle also helps somewhat. We each use only one rifle, one load, one zero for "all" of our big game hunting.


As much as I enjoy this……I have to go pour a little concrete! I hope that someone fills in for me in my absence! 😁 memtb
 
Koda_ said:
Varmint bullets...
If you pick a bullet designed for deer your there. Try to find one with the highest sectional density and your better off.

I know you dont want to disclose, but the general philosophy of this has been laid out. If your using a light for caliber for elk, knowing the cartridge will help others here help you pick the best bullet, or factory load if you don't handload. Handloading will give you better options.
Click to expand...
I'll get into specifics in another post after I get clear on all of these underlying matters and want to start drilling down. Knowing the caliber I'm considering if I go down the Philosophy 2 road, it looks like there are good bullet options that have SD over that .275 mark and should be well over the minimum expansion velocity at 500 yards, so the ballistics are there for that school of thought.
 
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In this day and age it really has become a which bullet, not which cartridge question (at least for those like us that bother to ask it). I think bullets have made such massive advancements both in design and production methods you can hit much harder, more accurately, much further than ever before. Add in rangefinder and ballistic solutions hardware as well as more reliable and functional optics and the question of what tool to kill with really has a ton of great answers. I would use bullets and cartridges from both camps and several unlisted fringe camps. Truth is, most bullet cartridge combinations in the hands of a practiced shooter will do nicely. Just one persons opinion, YMMV.
 
The 2 philosophies can both be correct.
A 50 bmg can easily kill with frangible bullets and marginal placement.
A 223 with great placement and a well constructed bullet is far from ideal.

I subscribe to the right tool for the job mentality. I can break concrete with a framing hammer...but a sledgehammer or jack hammer is far better.
Elk aren't tough to kill with a well placed shot and ample tissue damage. In this case, a 300WM is always a solid choice...unless you can't really handle it. Extra HP does in fact create more tissue damage and provide more margin...if you can handle it.
Nobody hunts elephants with a 243...just saying.
 
memtb said:
It's not so much the rifle/cartridge choice……but she also follows the 💩 happens philosophy. With increased range….the possibilities of unforeseen things than make an otherwise perfect shot into a crippling wound!

A limb suddenly snapping, another hunter (not see) can either spoke the animal through sight, sound, or smell, or in some areas a predator appearing inside the animal's comfort zone……all unhknown/unseen by the shooter.

Any of the above things can cause an animal to suddenly move, causing a misplaced shot. I believe that this possibility is enhanced at longer ranges.

So to better answer your question, she has wounded animals and seen animals wounded by other hunters…..she simply wants to minimize that possibility!

Intimate familiarity with your rifle also helps somewhat. We each use only one rifle, one load, one zero for "all" of our big game hunting.


As much as I enjoy this……I have to go pour a little concrete! I hope that someone fills in for me in my absence! 😁 memtb
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I hear you. This might be getting down to the real root of the matter, which is where I was hoping this thread would go. I'd add to your list of sh.. happens "she slightly flinches or yanks the trigger because she's blasting a 338 WM". Maybe she never does this, but it's still a risk. But for that risk, a smaller caliber is better.
So maybe it comes down to which insurance policy you want ... a super easy to shoot rifle/caliber (helps to insure against you screwing up your own shot) or a more devastating projectile (helps to insure against the sorts of things you describe). In the end, might be a personal preference and depend on your style of hunting.
For me, I have really resolved not to force shots in the field. If I have a shot at the extremes of my comfortable range, I will not take it unless I have a good amount of time to go through my sequence, get the blood pressure down, get a good angle with the animal in a stationary position, etc. If the animal is fidgeting around or looking nervous and like he might be getting ready to move, I will wait ... and if that means I don't get a shot, so be it. So I tend to think most about doing whatever I can to make sure I shoot accurately.
On the flip side, I could see someone saying I'll just get better at shooting a bigger caliber so that the chances that I bungle the shot will be much lower. That particular approach would cost me a lot of time and money and makes my shoulder hurt thinking about it. One side note is that I don't like muzzle brakes.
 
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257Tony said:
Elk guide here with around 100 guided Bull Elk hunts under my belt. Philosophy 2 is my personal stance. New elk hunters spend way too much time and money on rifles, cartridges, and bullets. Spend that time and money at the range, and in improving your physical fitness. Bring your 270 that you've had your whole life, and you'll be fine.
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This...............people should gravitate to!

I had a fella this am call me, east coast fella, sharp guy, good outdoorsman etc.

Told me he wanted to buy a new rifle, I asked why. He had booked an elk hunt. He told me he had a 2K budget. He also has a well used M70/270 that is his hunt rifle.

I told him to take the 2K and spend it at the gym, and to hire a trainer if need be. Head west in the best shape he can!

Smart fella, he said thanks that he'd load more Nozlers and get to the gym:)

Once in a great while people listen eh
 
MoreSalsa said:
Yeah I agree with all that but you are kind of running into one of the specific issues underlying all of this, which is that I want to be able to reach out to 400 and 500 yards. I bet if your wife started shooting a 9 pound rifle in a low recoil caliber, she'd be comfortable out to 500 yards and beyond. As I try to extend my max accurate range in the field, I think I'll have a much easier time and a lot better results if I am using my moderate recoil deer rifle.
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Now you're,. GETTING,. IT !
To 400-500 Yards, a good, 154 to 160 grain, .280 Rem or, 7 Rem Mag, 165 gr. .30-06, a 143 grain, ELD-X or, 140 gr. BERGER, in a 6.5 PRC or, .270 WSM, IS, "Plenty" and, All of, THEM, can be Shot,.. very WELL, by most, Hunters !
PS; Most Elk, are Killed at, LESS than,. 400 Yards ! Yup, it's a,.. FACT !
 
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