Bullet Choice for Sidearm

sroc112 said:

Why not the 180's?

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^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^ memtb

sroc112 said:

Why not the 180's?

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180 velocity is substantially lower out of a 40 than it is a 10mm. Wide meplat hard cast bullets will penetrate deeper, deform more, and produce a more substantial wound channel at higher velocity.

I would also consider that the problem with really hard bullets, BHN > 18-20, is they won't deform as much without encountering some heavy bone. Cast bullets with BHN 12-16 is sufficient to be devastating to Black bear.

The Speer Gold Dot was also a solid recommendation.

Laguna Freak said:

180 velocity is substantially lower out of a 40 than it is a 10mm. Wide meplat hard cast bullets will penetrate deeper, deform more, and produce a more substantial wound channel at higher velocity.

I would also consider that the problem with really hard bullets, BHN > 18-20, is they won't deform as much without encountering some heavy bone. Cast bullets with BHN 12-16 is sufficient to be devastating to Black bear.

The Speer Gold Dot was also a solid recommendation.

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In various tests of wide metplat cast bullets, greater penetration was achieved at around 1100 fps rather than the higher velocities with lighter bullets.

Perhaps 180's or even 200's at point blank range, as in bear attack range………the heavier bullets made be the better choice! memtb

memtb said:

In various tests of wide metplat cast bullets, greater penetration was achieved at around 1100 fps rather than the higher velocities with lighter bullets.

Perhaps 180's or even 200's at point blank range, as in bear attack range………the heavier bullets made be the better choice! memtb

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This , the heaviest for caliber/cartridge flat meplat hard solid you can get. Drive those as fast at the cartridge will allow, but weight and high sectional density is more important than speed. I would NOT use a hollow point as you lose penetration when they open up. Any of the previously mentioned big game/outdoors 200gr solids from Buffalo Bore, Federal or Underwood would be good choices.

Speed and hollow points actually hinders penetration. If you take the same hollow point fired from a 38 Special and a 357 Mag, the 38 will penetrate deeper. The speed from 357 Mag causes faster more violent expansion which dumps speed and energy with a bigger hole. That wide flat open hollow point leaves a shorter larger diameter more devastating cavity in a shorter distance. In a hopped up dirtbag intent on killing you that's a good thing. It is not however in a bear as the bullet stops short of hitting what it needs to. There isn't a handgun out there with enough energy to dump in a bear to stop one right now. You need to turn the lights off and that takes depth not shallow energy dump. I agree that all other things equal the bigger .45 hole is better than a 10mm hole is better than a 9mm hole but the most important thing is connecting with the right system in the bear and that takes depth. A bullet in the brain or spine is a dead bear whether it's a 9mm or a .45 but you have to get it there.

With big cats I can see the benefit of a controlled expansion hollow point. The HST would be a solid choice or the new G2 Gold Dots, etc. But with any chance of a bear I would stay with the solids.

memtb said:

In various tests of wide metplat cast bullets, greater penetration was achieved at around 1100 fps rather than the higher velocities with lighter bullets.

Perhaps 180's or even 200's at point blank range, as in bear attack range………the heavier bullets made be the better choice! memtb

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Thank you for elaborating on my critical velocity point. 40 S&W needs to be loaded at max+ powder charge to push a 180 at 1100 fps with about a dozen different handgun powders listed in the Hornady handbook. 200 gr is even slower. Like I said, it's not a 10 mm.

On the other hand 155 to 165 gr can be pushed 1100 fps with a lighter recoiling mid range load. Both bullet weights can be pushed faster too, without max load with a handful of powders.

I would be curious to see what would penetrate more, a 147 gr FMJ flat point at 1250 fps (357 Sig) or a 180 gr FMJ flat point at 1100 fps (.40). Probably the 147 if I had to guess. It would no doubt shoot flatter.

And I don't know if those velocities are realistic, it's just what I found on Underwood's XTP load data.

BrBa. said:

I would be curious to see what would penetrate more, a 147 gr FMJ flat point at 1250 fps (357 Sig) or a 180 gr FMJ flat point at 1100 fps (.40). Probably the 147 if I had to guess. It would no doubt shoot flatter.

And I don't know if those velocities are realistic, it's just what I found on Underwood's XTP load data.

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Might be a toss up. However, when you figure in the frontal area of the two bullets, the lighter, smaller diameter bullet may actually penetrate deeper. memtb

memtb said:

Might be a toss up. However, when you figure in the frontal area of the two bullets, the lighter, smaller diameter bullet may actually penetrate deeper. memtb

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Yeah that's what I was thinking. 147 gr 9mm and 180 gr .40 have nearly the same sectional densities (0.167 vs 0.161), so I would give the nod to the faster moving bullet.

I haven't played in the Glock .40 sandbox for 15+ years, but one nice thing is the 357 barrels are a drop in fit and use the same mags as the .40. Aftermarket barrels with conventional rifling opens up the use of hardcast bullets which aren't recommended in polygonal barrels. Just a thought.

@BrBa. brings up a good point.

It totally slipped my mind that Glocks have polygonal rifling.
That, and unless you get the right Brinell hardness, shooting lead over about 1,000fps is going to require a gas check.
Since @sroc112 appearantly doesn't reload, a gas check is a copper cup that fits on the back of the bullet and is crimped to the sides.

Not sure where @sroc112 is hunting. But being in NJ, make sure you know the laws regarding hollow points in that state!
Unless you're current or retired law enforcement you can't carry hollow points for self defense.
With a valid hunting license you can "transport directly" to a shooting range or to hunt.
Meaning not in the gun.
No stopping for coffee at WAWA or Turkey Hill.

For those who travel through NJ,
purchase or possession of hollow points, without a valid exemption is a 4th degree felony, punishable by 18 months in jail.
Something that they don't advertise is that the fine that goes along with it is $1,000 per hollow point.
Magazine holds 15 rounds...
You do the math.

std7mag said:

That, and unless you get the right Brinell hardness, shooting lead over about 1,000fps is going to require a gas check.

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Gas checks are truly only necessary at rifle velocities. Read the litany of posts from decades long cast shooters over at cast boolits forum.

To the OP; If you want a really hard bullet BHN 18+, go for it. It's your life. But don't be surprised if you have to unload on a bear because the bullet does not expand at all or it is completely frangible on bone impact, depending on the mfr's alloy and hardening process.

Somebody posted in your thread about their buddy who had to unload on a black bear trying to climb into his tree stand with him. When I read that, my first thought was; horrible shooter or horrible bullet. A bear climbing your tree should offer a point blank head shot wherein the shooter has a clear higher tree advantage. In reality such a scenario should not require more than a couple of shots to dispatch the problem bear beyond recovery. Obviously the shooter's ability to remain steady under duress is a big factor.

I would say, based on months of research and years of personal experience with a few different cast bullets, that BHN 12+ is more than sufficient hardness for every north American application of cast lead handgun bullets. I bet my life on it when I carry my 44 mag or .45 auto in Grizzly territory.

I haven't mentioned GT Bullets here before because it is already a long wait to get their bullets. I ordered 145 gr .357 LSWC HP in June. If I'm fortunate, I'll see them by Thanksgiving. Fortunately for me, I have a few hundred of my favorite GT 44, 45, and .40 bullets. I mention GT now only because they have some ballistics data and videos on their site. Posted below.


Years ago, GT listed their 2-2-96 alloy at BHN 12-14 and stated then, that they give little credence to BHN. Research completed over the years has induced them to no longer reference BHN, which they address in their Information pages.

GT's handgun alloy performs equivalent to many jacketed bullets in velocity tolerance, deformity, and weight retention which is why they have a 7 month production backlog, and have had a backlog for as long as I've been buying them which is 5+ years .

IMO, BHN 12+ is more than sufficient for velocity up to 1300+ FPS. I've been shooting GT 285 gr SWC cast bullets in my 44 mag, and 160 gr HP in my 40 S&W for years. They leave little or no lead fouling, fly with tremendous repeatable PoI, and produce devastating terminal ballistics. I also have been shooting Stateline 148 gr BNWC in my 38 Special with like results. I'm about to buy some Bayou bullets 138 BNWC for the .38.




Whatever you choose, you have to be confident in it. Conduct your due diligence research to your satisfaction. Your life may depend on it.

Went with the 200gr Buffalo Bore. Hollow points in NJ are too much of a hassle. I own some for home defence. Given I will be using the bear gun when out of state alot, still transporting through NJ is too much worry vs benefit so I chose to just not carry HP outside the house.