Powder choices and felt recoil

I have a couple of rifles (30-06 and 280ai) that use N560, and when compared to the two rifles I have that use Retumbo (280ai and 30 Nosler) I swear the Retumbo rifles are both more enjoyable than the N560 rifles. They are different weights, shoot different weights bullets, etc, but the recoil calculator says both Retumbo guns have the most recoil of any of the rifles I own. The 280's and 30-06 are all similar and the 30 Nosler has by far more recoil. They all have brakes (although some different brands) so that should equal out.

I feel like slower powders produce less felt recoil, spreading the impact out over a longer time. As many folks have described it, it sounds like a shove while the N560 rifle feels more like a punch.

Is this just me or do others notice a noticeable difference in recoil with some powders?

I'm taking this as a 'no', that others don't notice this….

I notice more difference from the weight of the powder? Or that's what I decided the difference was more than likely.

Example, 28 Nosler, shooting RL33 vs RL26 at very similar velocity using the same bullet, the RL26 load will be 10ish grains less and it has what feels to me like substantially less recoil. I've felt this with two different rifles but what convinced me was I felt the same thing in the exact same rifle, with and without a brake, with and without a suppressor also. 300RUM with 869 vs LRT vs H1000, 280 with H4350 vs RL19 VS H4831 was the same conclusion for me, 284 Win etc.

I don't know if I am right or not but it made sense to me at the time.....

The Oregonian said:

I'm taking this as a 'no', that others don't notice this….

Click to expand...

Yes. I agree.

The Oregonian said:

I have a couple of rifles (30-06 and 280ai) that use N560, and when compared to the two rifles I have that use Retumbo (280ai and 30 Nosler) I swear the Retumbo rifles are both more enjoyable than the N560 rifles. They are different weights, shoot different weights bullets, etc, but the recoil calculator says both Retumbo guns have the most recoil of any of the rifles I own. The 280's and 30-06 are all similar and the 30 Nosler has by far more recoil. They all have brakes (although some different brands) so that should equal out.

I feel like slower powders produce less felt recoil, spreading the impact out over a longer time. As many folks have described it, it sounds like a shove while the N560 rifle feels more like a punch.

Is this just me or do others notice a noticeable difference in recoil with some powders?

Click to expand...

I don't think it's just you by yourself since many of us have described the same action using the same terms. The difference being that we used the word 'feel' instead of 'sounds'...

Retumbo is an Extreme Powder which as described by Hodgdon means that there is less variation from Temperature and Lot# batch to batch. Less spiking if you will from changes in Temperature and Lot#.

VVN-560 is a Double Base powder which uses Nitroglycerine as an added component to increase Energy and Temperature from the burning powder. You are able to achieve higher velocities than from Single Base powders without Nitroglycerine.

It stands to reason then that Retumbo feels more like a punch and VVN-560 feels more like a punch.

In calculating recoil, the components in the equation include the weight of the powder, often referred to as 'Ejecta'. Here is a calculator as an example:

https://shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

Here is an explanation of the formula:

Recoil Calculation Formula

Recoil in Ft- Lb = ((((Wb+(Wp x 1.75)) x Vm)/Wr)/7000)^2 x Wr / 64.4



Where:

Wb = Weight of Bullet in grains

Wp = Weight of powder in grains

Vm = Muzzle Velocity in fps

Wr = Weight of Rifle in pounds

Ga = Acceleration of gravity 64.4 fps/sec

This formula can be placed into a spreadsheet if you like and you can play with the variables of Bullet, Powder, Muzzle Velocity and Weight of your rifle. Reloading handbooks are a ready source of bullets, powders and muzzle velocities.

Here is an example for a 243 Winchester:

Wb=100 grains

Wp=43 grains

Vm=2900 fps

Wr=8 pounds

Take the weight of the powder and multiply by a factor of 1.75 = 75.25. Add this to the weight of the bullet 100 + 75.25 = 175.25. Now multiply this by the muzzle velocity 175.25 X 2900 = 508225. Take the 508225 and divide it by the weight of the rifle in pounds. 508225/8 pounds = 63528.125. Now divide this by 7000 grains per pound. 63528.125/7000 = 9.075. Ok, we are almost there. Now square this result 9.075^2 = 82.355. Multiply this by the weight of the rifle in pounds, 82.355 x 8 = 658.845. Finally divide this by the acceleration of gravity 64.4 fps/sec = 10.23 ft-lbs Recoil. I rounded these numbers a bit in my spreadsheet and got 9.9 ft-lbs recoil, a tenth of a pound difference. Or use this calculator below which does it easily and includes products like recoil velocity and recoil impulse. This is a great way to validate the formula findings. If you round your intermediate data it may vary slightly from the on-line calculator.
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Checking the idea of the weight of the Ejecta is simple by substituting lesser or greater weight of the powder in the calculator. This surprises most shooters.

Enjoy!

I had 2 rifles that shot the exact same load but one (the lighter of the 2) had less felt recoil. This didn't make any sense. Both have brakes, but the brake on the lighter rifle works significantly better. There is a huge difference in brake effectiveness. I have a 30-06 that has lots more recoil than my 7mm of similar weight. Again, I attribute that to brake differences.

Stock design has a significant impact on felt recoil. Now if you shot the two different 280ai loads out of the same gun and the lighter still felt like more recoil, I would say that you are noticing the higher impulse. I think there are other threads on this.

That is the case in my 338 RUM, light weight bullets w/ faster powder have a significantly more impulse than my heavier weight bullets (makes more of a flip up vs a push back).

The Oregonian said:

I have a couple of rifles (30-06 and 280ai) that use N560, and when compared to the two rifles I have that use Retumbo (280ai and 30 Nosler) I swear the Retumbo rifles are both more enjoyable than the N560 rifles. They are different weights, shoot different weights bullets, etc, but the recoil calculator says both Retumbo guns have the most recoil of any of the rifles I own. The 280's and 30-06 are all similar and the 30 Nosler has by far more recoil. They all have brakes (although some different brands) so that should equal out.

I feel like slower powders produce less felt recoil, spreading the impact out over a longer time. As many folks have described it, it sounds like a shove while the N560 rifle feels more like a punch.

Is this just me or do others notice a noticeable difference in recoil with some powders?

Click to expand...

I agree completely. I think the slower powders spread the recoil impulse over a longer time period and change the feel of the recoil if not the exact foot-pounds of energy delivered.

I agree also. Seems like some powders are just "gentler".
I won't post what rifles I own, but I have several significantly larger cartridged guns bigger than 7mm-08. My 7mm-08 with a max load of varget kicks harder than any of my guns, by a long shot... and none are braked or suppressed! I won't even ask my wife to shoot that -08. I believe some is from the powder and some from stock design, but it has actually bloodied my eye, lol. I bought my wife a 7mm-08 Rifle and loaded it with Varget too. Sold the gun. She didn't like the recoil, but can shoot my .280s with max loads of 4831 out of the same rifle make and model!
There IS a noticeable difference in recoil.
Some things leave you scratching your head.

jakeSCH said:

Stock design has a significant impact on felt recoil. Now if you shot the two different 280ai loads out of the same gun and the lighter still felt like more recoil, I would say that you are noticing the higher impulse. I think there are other threads on this.

That is the case in my 338 RUM, light weight bullets w/ faster powder have a significantly more impulse than my heavier weight bullets (makes more of a flip up vs a push back).

Click to expand...

I agree with the stock design, seems like if you draw a straight lined along the bore, and extend the line along the stock , not all set ups are equal , so to me it has to have some effect on felt recoil and muzzle jump .

I had a 6.5 CM that I shot a lot of RL 22 and RL 26. I always thought the RL 22 loads had a sharper recoil than the RL 26 loads.

So maybe this isn't all in my head. It sounds like there is something to this powder aspect, along with a good recoil pad…both something that widely available recoil calculators can't capture. I felt my 30-06 pad and it is much firmer than the decelerator pad on my 280.

And I am sure some brakes are more effective than others, although that is hard to measure and there is no common standard to be able to compare them in a head to head way. But brake effectiveness will certainly impact recoil and felt recoil.

The Oregonian said:

I have a couple of rifles (30-06 and 280ai) that use N560, and when compared to the two rifles I have that use Retumbo (280ai and 30 Nosler) I swear the Retumbo rifles are both more enjoyable than the N560 rifles. They are different weights, shoot different weights bullets, etc, but the recoil calculator says both Retumbo guns have the most recoil of any of the rifles I own. The 280's and 30-06 are all similar and the 30 Nosler has by far more recoil. They all have brakes (although some different brands) so that should equal out.

I feel like slower powders produce less felt recoil, spreading the impact out over a longer time. As many folks have described it, it sounds like a shove while the N560 rifle feels more like a punch.

Is this just me or do others notice a noticeable difference in recoil with some powders?

Click to expand...

I've not setup any sort of experiment to prove it but It seems to me that faster burning powders produce a sharper recoil vs slower powders which seem to have more than a hard push rather than being struck feeling.

Somewhere I came across a recoil calculator that got powder specific and included the speed of recoil. It seemed to confirm the slower powders produced lower velocity hence a not a sharp an impact vs faster powders.

I wish I could remember where that was... .?

I notice this alot, same bullet, similar velocity. The cartridge is the mild 6GT. I distinctly can tell the difference between 4166 and Superformance. The super is much more snappy while the 4166 is a smooth slide to the rear. Super is a fairly slow powder and the 4166 a good bit faster on the burn chart. Completely the opposite of what I thought it should be.