MOA Expectations as Distance Increases

Song Dogger

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Wyoming
Somewhat of a newbie here. I understand the definition of MOA - 1/60th of a degree, or approximately 1" at 100 yds, 2" at 200 yds, and so on. So, in theory, if I shoot sub 1" groups at 100 yds, I should be able to shoot 5" groups at 500 yds. Yet, in reality, my precision decreases with distance. I might get sub MOA at 100 yds, 1 MOA at 200 yds, 1.2 MOA at 300 yards, which might mean exceeding 2 MOA at 1000 yds.

At longer distances, the target shrinks but the crosshairs don't. I see more distorting "heatwaves", and parallax can become more of a factor. The longer a bullet is in the air, the more time it can be inconsistently affected by the environment/wind or allow bullet or barrel imperfections to show. And so on...

Maybe I'm making excuses or even stating the obvious. But, in my research, there's a definite perception that I should hit a 10" plate at 1000 yds if I shoot sub MOA at 100 yds. So, before I try this and drive myself nuts, is it reasonable to expect the same MOA precision at all distances for a weekend shooter like me?
 
You are on the right track.
Load,
Barrel harmonics
Bullet yaw
All have a affect on group deviation.
And we haven't even talked about shooter and environmental effects.
Then there is parallax, ammo temp, bullet run out, etc.
The plan is try to be as consistent with these factors, eliminate and or account for them.
 
Somewhat of a newbie here. I understand the definition of MOA - 1/60th of a degree, or approximately 1" at 100 yds, 2" at 200 yds, and so on. So, in theory, if I shoot sub 1" groups at 100 yds, I should be able to shoot 5" groups at 500 yds. Yet, in reality, my precision decreases with distance. I might get sub MOA at 100 yds, 1 MOA at 200 yds, 1.2 MOA at 300 yards, which might mean exceeding 2 MOA at 1000 yds.

At longer distances, the target shrinks but the crosshairs don't. I see more distorting "heatwaves", and parallax can become more of a factor. The longer a bullet is in the air, the more time it can be inconsistently affected by the environment/wind or allow bullet or barrel imperfections to show. And so on...

Maybe I'm making excuses or even stating the obvious. But, in my research, there's a definite perception that I should hit a 10" plate at 1000 yds if I shoot sub MOA at 100 yds. So, before I try this and drive myself nuts, is it reasonable to expect the same MOA precision at all distances for a weekend shooter like me?

outside of guys who shoot more or less for a living and dedicate huge resources to dealing with this very problem there's no reason to expect that you'd be able to shoot to the gun (*what you call shooting to the mechanical accuracy capabilities of the rifle) beyond short to intermediate distances. Wind calls will be the first thing to blow your groups as distance grows and outside of 300m I doubt most recreational target shooters are capable of nailing their wind call.

Find a load with single digit velocity SD's and work your wind calls HARD. Learn how terrain and trajectory affect effective wind speeds. You'll really get the best bang for your buck that way. At least IMHO.
 
Not necessarily the same at all ranges, because at 1000, an inperceptible change in wind (.5mph) can make your 100 yd MOA group no longer 1 MOA at 1000. Here is what I do...

My rifle shoots in the .2-.3's all day at 100 yards, even for 10 shot groups. If it will do that, then at long ranges, 800 and more, if I do my job, my groups will be under 1 MOA or so in poor shooting conditions (high winds, 10-30 mph, lots of mirage, ect.) if I read the wind well. If weather conditions are good however, I hover right around .5 moa or a touch under. 4-6" 5 shot groups and first round impacts at 1000ish yards is pretty normal if I have good shooting conditions, with the occasional 3" group. I expect MYSELF to produce sub half MOA with this rifle if conditions are good, if I fail to do so then I look for what I did wrong and attempt to correct it and learn from it.

So no, I don't expect .2-.3 MOA at 1000 yards if that is what my rifle does at 100. Give yourself some room for error and environmental conditions, and even more if conditions are bad. And I do recommend shooting in poor situations...you will learn more in 20 rounds at 500 yards in 18 mph winds with gusts in the 30's than 500 rounds banging steel every time in a 1-3 mph breeze at 1000 yards. High winds are very humbling...
 
And another reason to practice in winds over 10 mph at times, is at this speed you can't rely on your wind meter, mirage does almost nothing for you at these speeds, a 20 mph mirage looks no different than a 35 mph mirage...you have to go by feel and observation of terrain. And realize that your effective range will be cut down....dramatically. that's not saying ONLY practice in these winds, but do it every now and then, and it will keep your expectations realistic
 
^^^ One of my favorite things to do. I like to shoot in the Mojave desert during the Santa Ana winds. 30-60mph winds and extreme range. You miss a LOT but that makes the successive hits that much more rewarding.

Came in handy a year and a half ago at our state high power metallic silhouette championship. Winds from 20-45mph with lots of gusting and medium to heavy rain, standing up, offhand, no sling/jacket/gloves allowed and shooting 200-500m at 3MOA steel targets. I went 8 hits for 40 shots that time which wasn't too far below my normal shooting at the time (20% instead of 32-38%). I took home the title for my class, so did my coach. At several points in the match we were holding on the previous target to hit the one I was on which equates to 32-45 minutes (~6-9 feet) of wind hold. No point dialing it at that scale. The next day we did it again in worse weather. If you can't deal with weather, the real world will kick your butt.
 
Good feedback, gentlemen, appreciate it. I'm attending a long range school in a few weeks, and having reasonable expectations as you suggest should keep it fun. Good advice on practicing in poor conditions as well, lots of opportunity for that in Wyoming!
 
Good feedback, gentlemen, appreciate it. I'm attending a long range school in a few weeks, and having reasonable expectations as you suggest should keep it fun. Good advice on practicing in poor conditions as well, lots of opportunity for that in Wyoming!
Expect it's going to take a lot of work and dedication to shoot MOA or better beyond 600yds.

Learning to read and properly adjust for the wind is the biggest problem all LR shooters face.

Particularly if you are shooting over cut up terrain you may see the wind change 2-3 times or more between the end of your muzzle and your target.
 
OP, If your groups are spreading out horizontally, it's most likely missing your wind call. Vertically and it points more toward your load.

You did not mention the caliber, factory or custom, bullet or whether these are reloads. If you have a chronograph, what are your SDs and ES. This info will allow us to better help you. Often a rifle/ammo combo will shoot fairly good groups at 100 yds, but fall apart at longer range.
 
Somewhat of a newbie here. I understand the definition of MOA - 1/60th of a degree, or approximately 1" at 100 yds, 2" at 200 yds, and so on. So, in theory, if I shoot sub 1" groups at 100 yds, I should be able to shoot 5" groups at 500 yds. Yet, in reality, my precision decreases with distance. I might get sub MOA at 100 yds, 1 MOA at 200 yds, 1.2 MOA at 300 yards, which might mean exceeding 2 MOA at 1000 yds.

At longer distances, the target shrinks but the crosshairs don't. I see more distorting "heatwaves", and parallax can become more of a factor. The longer a bullet is in the air, the more time it can be inconsistently affected by the environment/wind or allow bullet or barrel imperfections to show. And so on...

Maybe I'm making excuses or even stating the obvious. But, in my research, there's a definite perception that I should hit a 10" plate at 1000 yds if I shoot sub MOA at 100 yds. So, before I try this and drive myself nuts, is it reasonable to expect the same MOA precision at all distances for a weekend shooter like me?

Hell no it isn't reasonable to expect it unless you're shooting in a 1000 yard warehouse isolated from the environment and your bullet even stays stable that long.

Copying your 100 yard MOA out to further distances is your goal but it rarely consistently happens and it shouldn't expected. Your group will open up, you have to be reasonable about how much it will.
 
OP, If your groups are spreading out horizontally, it's most likely missing your wind call. Vertically and it points more toward your load.

You did not mention the caliber, factory or custom, bullet or whether these are reloads. If you have a chronograph, what are your SDs and ES. This info will allow us to better help you. Often a rifle/ammo combo will shoot fairly good groups at 100 yds, but fall apart at longer range.

Yup. This guy! Knowing the difference between vertical disbursion and horizontal is key. A couple months ago I was shooting at 650 with VERY tricky winds and managed a 2" vertical with a 10" horizontal. My 200 yard groups are right at 3/4" or 3/8 MOA. This is a sign that it's the wind not my load/rifle/scope/ shooter combo. It's the wind. If you had the opposite you would have a lot of work to do.
 
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