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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Heavy .30cal Berger bullets - Any chance of some?
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<blockquote data-quote="BryanLitz" data-source="post: 262612" data-attributes="member: 7848"><p>There are 230 grain bullets on the drawing board as we speak. I'm working on designs for VLD's and BT's (tangent ogives). The designs will be stable in a 1:10" twist. These bullets will be second in line after the 338's on the new machine, so it's going to be a while. The need has been clearly identified, and we're working on it.</p><p></p><p>As Kevin stated, there will be challenges associated with making bullets of this size, but we'll do our best to overcome them.</p><p></p><p>The problem I see with ours and Sierras existing heavy 30 cal bullets is that we use the same short ogive on our heaviest bullets as the lighter (shorter) ones. The ogives are too short for such long bullets. The bullets are left with very long bearing surfaces which causes problems and drag isn't reduced as much as it could be with an ogive that's proportionally longer. Hornady didn't make that mistake. Their Amax's from 155-178 all have the same ogive but their heaviest one, the 208, has a much longer ogive which makes it a better bullet than the 220-240 SMK and the 210 VLD. </p><p></p><p>The 230 grain designs I'm working on will be a departure from the standard .30 cal VLD ogive used on all other weights. Think of a scaled up 7mm 180 VLD. BC ought to be around ~0.71.</p><p></p><p>I think 230 is just the right weight because it's the extension of the trendline from other calibers. For example, the heaviest bullet in .224 cal is 90 gr, .244 is 115 gr, .264 is 140 gr, .284 is 180 gr, if you extend that trendline up to .30 cal, it hits 230 grains. In other words, 230 grains is exactly what we should expect a heavy .30 caliber bullet to weigh, based on the heaviest bullets in other calibers. By the way, if this trendline is extended to .338 caliber, it goes right to 300 grains. There's no reason why a 230 grain .30 caliber bullet should be a big problem.</p><p></p><p>FiftyDriver,</p><p>You make a good point about mag length issues. A long nosed bullet certainly challenges mag length requirements. I used to see that as a fault or problem with our bullets. Now I see it as a fault of the magazine length! The bottom line is that ballistic performance is tied very strongly to the length of the bullet's nose. The longer the nose, the lower the drag, higher the BC, etc. If the length of the magazine limits the performance of a rifle because it can only work with short nosed, high drag bullets, then I see that as a fault of the magazine design. As you said, many shooters are willing to single load the rounds in order to enjoy the superior ballistic performance of better bullets. </p><p>It's the same kind of issue with barrel twist. If the 'standard' barrel twist in .30 cal is (for example) 1:12", it won't be able to take advantage of the best (highest BC) bullets in that caliber. Likewise, if a rifle has a 'standard' magazine length that's too short to accommodate the best bullets, then it's limiting the performance of the system.</p><p>I find your comments about the accuracy of Berger bullets being limited to below 3200-3300 fps interesting. Do you find this to be true in all calibers, or only the larger calibers? You have some unique insight into pushing heavier bullets faster than normal so I'm very interested in your observations. I would be interested to know if that observation is true of both our thick jacketed target bullets as well as the thin jacketed hunting bullets. If you have specifics about bullets and velocities that you've seen a clear fall off in accuracy, I'm interested to hear more about it.</p><p></p><p>-Bryan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryanLitz, post: 262612, member: 7848"] There are 230 grain bullets on the drawing board as we speak. I'm working on designs for VLD's and BT's (tangent ogives). The designs will be stable in a 1:10" twist. These bullets will be second in line after the 338's on the new machine, so it's going to be a while. The need has been clearly identified, and we're working on it. As Kevin stated, there will be challenges associated with making bullets of this size, but we'll do our best to overcome them. The problem I see with ours and Sierras existing heavy 30 cal bullets is that we use the same short ogive on our heaviest bullets as the lighter (shorter) ones. The ogives are too short for such long bullets. The bullets are left with very long bearing surfaces which causes problems and drag isn't reduced as much as it could be with an ogive that's proportionally longer. Hornady didn't make that mistake. Their Amax's from 155-178 all have the same ogive but their heaviest one, the 208, has a much longer ogive which makes it a better bullet than the 220-240 SMK and the 210 VLD. The 230 grain designs I'm working on will be a departure from the standard .30 cal VLD ogive used on all other weights. Think of a scaled up 7mm 180 VLD. BC ought to be around ~0.71. I think 230 is just the right weight because it's the extension of the trendline from other calibers. For example, the heaviest bullet in .224 cal is 90 gr, .244 is 115 gr, .264 is 140 gr, .284 is 180 gr, if you extend that trendline up to .30 cal, it hits 230 grains. In other words, 230 grains is exactly what we should expect a heavy .30 caliber bullet to weigh, based on the heaviest bullets in other calibers. By the way, if this trendline is extended to .338 caliber, it goes right to 300 grains. There's no reason why a 230 grain .30 caliber bullet should be a big problem. FiftyDriver, You make a good point about mag length issues. A long nosed bullet certainly challenges mag length requirements. I used to see that as a fault or problem with our bullets. Now I see it as a fault of the magazine length! The bottom line is that ballistic performance is tied very strongly to the length of the bullet's nose. The longer the nose, the lower the drag, higher the BC, etc. If the length of the magazine limits the performance of a rifle because it can only work with short nosed, high drag bullets, then I see that as a fault of the magazine design. As you said, many shooters are willing to single load the rounds in order to enjoy the superior ballistic performance of better bullets. It's the same kind of issue with barrel twist. If the 'standard' barrel twist in .30 cal is (for example) 1:12", it won't be able to take advantage of the best (highest BC) bullets in that caliber. Likewise, if a rifle has a 'standard' magazine length that's too short to accommodate the best bullets, then it's limiting the performance of the system. I find your comments about the accuracy of Berger bullets being limited to below 3200-3300 fps interesting. Do you find this to be true in all calibers, or only the larger calibers? You have some unique insight into pushing heavier bullets faster than normal so I'm very interested in your observations. I would be interested to know if that observation is true of both our thick jacketed target bullets as well as the thin jacketed hunting bullets. If you have specifics about bullets and velocities that you've seen a clear fall off in accuracy, I'm interested to hear more about it. -Bryan [/QUOTE]
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Heavy .30cal Berger bullets - Any chance of some?
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