Deer season in Pennsylvania

[mrbb]

I belong to a hunting camp in North central PA, and like you MOST of the hunting camps there are a opening day or two and GONE like ghost town like deal anymore
there are however more and more full time residents there now than ever
a ton of folks got into the Natural gas lease's, got cash in pockets and built homes, or added onto camps
and yes MOST all private lands are now gated, as are MOST of the game lands other than hunting season
when I remember being an older guy myself, how for yrs and yrs access to game lands was open ALL yr and roads were in worse shape, and beat your truck up going on them LOL
but game numbers in my area(larger 20,000 plus tracts of public lands)
game numbers is still far and few, deer are sen her and there IF your lucky
25+ members in camp, that GO out and hunt all first week, and about 2-3 weeks of archery
and were lucky if we kill one or two deer now, and most guys don't even see a deer in a week of hunting
and were not all poor hunters(some are not the best I admit LOL)
but many are die hard do all they can hunters very successful in almost all out of state hunts(self guided NOT outfitted hunts)
we actually quit hunting grouse as we never even see any any more, HOPING numbers would come back
I personally haven't seen a woodcock there in about 10+ yrs now, and for yrs it was PRIME hunting there for them

ONLY pheasants we hunt there are pen raised one's, and we ONLY shoot them, as we know if we don't they will; end up hit by a car or a cat will eat em!!
My last bird dog used to catch them all the time, as they didn;t know to fly away or???

too the fun out of hunting them like that??

I don't have the answers to bringing back small game, MY best suggestion is for the state to do MORE timbering
NOT huge clear cuts, but a lot more smaller sections at a time
and its to me a WIN WIN deal, better habitat and more funds for the game commission to put in there budget

I think the price for a hunting lic is CHEAP, and a SMALL price to pay for enjoying the sport and the outdoors
BUT at the same time, it ****es me off to hear them cry about BUDGET, when there sitting on hundred of millions in timber and NG!

COME ON< timbering is GOOD for the wildlife and if it puts money in the budget, why do they do so LITTLE

better to get the $$$$ off timber than ask for it from hunters, who MOST I know are NOT big fans of the Game commission, due to there mistakes they have made!

other states would LOVE to have HALF the budget PA has, and or the amount of land they have to work with!!

but back to the OP's ??
NO I do NOT think PA right now is a GREAT place for hunting, its way low on TOO many species it once had in HIGH numbers

best time for bears', BIG bucks, coyotes and MAYBE turkeys
YES
but anything else?? NO< not even close!
unless you can hunt back yards, then there are a ton of squirrels and rabbits there,
but NOT as many in the woods where I hunt LOL
grouse wood cock, woodchucks, Pheasants??
far and few anymore!

 

[yobuck]

I dont know what area of N C your referring to, but it certainly isnt the area ive spent many years in.
Some very nice homes have been built by retirees moving from other areas but they are few in comparison to others that are falling down for lack of repair.
Try buying gas or a loaf of bread in the lower part of Cameron county. Its over 20 miles to the nearest store or a place to buy fuel.
Take a good look at Renovo the next time you drive thru there. Emporium is but a few years of becoming the same.
Ask some of the business people there whoes moving in and the answers may startle you.
I never remember in my life seeing lots of woodcock. They are a migratory bird and as a rule can be seen only during that period.
Grouse populations have always fluctuated as do rabbits and squirrels. Good years and bad years.
I see lots of squirrels and last year was a seemingly good one.
As ive said i have no great love for the PGC. But all things considered the state still offers alot for those who are willing to put forth some effort.
I do think the cross bow issue will need to be addressed due to the numbers of hunters now using them and the numbers of deer they are taking with them.
Ive never hunted archery and im not in any way opposed to them being used. But fact is they are taking lots of deer at a time others arent permitted to hunt.
There needs to be a shorter season for cross bows in my opinion.

 

[mrbb]

I am a member of a camp in sullivain/bradford county area, and BIG stores YES are 40+ minutes away, but we have and HAVE had smaller stores that carry basic's, and since the NG boob, a LOT more things have opened up near us
I have hunted Woodcock in many stream and creek bottoms on a farm I have hunted for 30+ yrs
have 3 professional dog trainers that used to BEG for access to train there dogs(they did them hunt tests up and down the east coast and won a LOT of trophy's, pup's start at about 2k)

and say from the late 70's's to late 90's wood cock would YES migrate there and would have LOADS of them, could flush 20-50 a day of you wanted to keep going
used to be able to limit out on grouse there at will

from the late 90's every yr just got less and less, from about 2008 or so up, I have NEVER even seen a grouse or wood cock on the lands, and I spend a TON Of hrs every yr AL yr on the farms
also haven't seen a rabbit there any where BUT around the house's
where it seems I see MOST of them anymore

having owned and hunted over a LOT of great bird dogs and as such spend a ton of time walking late season fields with snow on

its RARE to see rabbit tracks anymore on the game lands we travel to looking for late season pheasants
same as in all the old coal mine places I used to hunt for grouse and flush 10-15 an hr
now, lucky if I flush 2-5 a season!
and its habitat that I believe is the difference, lack of GOOD quality food ALL YR

and that's the key, ALL YR, just cause folks walk in early fall and late summer scouting and see lots of green
come this time of yr and what is there

over browsed woods, lack of GOOD cover and food, in FAR too many places, to sustain many game animals in higher numbers

the forests got this way from poor management, and to date, I FEEL, there has been way too little effort to correct
yes some, to quiet some from complaining
but again, PA has 4+million acres of PUBLIC Lands to work with here
do the math on timber, and funds it could bring to enhance things better

YES PA has game, if you work hard enough and like to travel a lot, you can be productive
BUT I recall the yrs when game was in more places
there is NO shortage of game lands(love to have more though LOL)
so there is room for improvement
timber MORE . get more $$ for the budget and
use that $$ to do better things!
This is my point!
it could always better, and most times it $$ that stops things(red tape too)
but the fact the PA GC sits on a millions of timber, and then at times cry about budget's
doesn't sit well with me
one thing to be broke, and not have a way to get by, but they do, and they don't even have to to the work, the timber company will harvest the timber, and they just get PAID!
so shouldn't take up anymore MAN hours! win win if you ask me!

 

[yobuck]

Well other than the state game lands owned by the PGC, the rest of the public land is owned by the residents of PA and managed by the DCNR.
So to be fair, the PGC has no control over how the state forest land is managed. Fact is its become a bit confusing as to who controls the deer numbers on state owned land. Seemingly of late the DCNR does.
Both these agencys like all other government agencys, exist mainly for the benefit of the agencys and not for the reasons they were created for to begin with.
The DCNR is not about managing the resources such as the timber on the land it is mandated to manage for the taxpayers. It manages those resources to benefit itself and the ever growing numbers of people who are employed there.
So forget about money being generated from timber sales going to benefit wildlife.
Its going to be used for the benefits of the employees first and maybe a token amount used for other purposes. The legislature knows all this and it helps them in
their being able to appropriate money elsewhere. And you can use your imagination there also.
The members of the game commission are in reality just a group of people appointed to an important sounding position on behalf of their support for the party of the governor who appointed them. In other words theyve bought their appointment. They basicly are just a bunch of head nodders who go along to get along with the real decision makers.
They being the director and his full time staff. And their main concern is what?

 

[mrbb]

HAHAHa
IA agree money from timbering might never make it to wildlife projects
BUT the simple fact timbering alone would benefit ALL wildlife, so a win there by default

next is, again, MY point to a slight degree
OTHER states that border PA< have better habitat, as they didn't let things GO as far out of wack as the PA folks did!
TOO much Hype about having the most hunters and deer numbers, for bragging rights and that made the forest and wildlife suffer!

SO< again, PA dropped the ball as to what other states did
as a fact MOST all other states have had an INCREASE in critters not a drop off like we have!
to the point MOST have up'd there limits trying to NOT go down the road PA went!
and these states again have smaller amounts of land they can control/manage

the shear numbers of food plots and co op farms in Ohio, is mind blowing as to the percentage of public lands they have

I hunted there for almost 20 yrs and seen things get better and better
WILL admit that last 2-3 seasons it seems there are less deer there, BUT I honestly think its more about SO many deer being nocturnal , so sightings are less
forest are THICK with growth and browse, I see tons of rabbits on forested(near farm lands)
and in general a LOT of small game
WV again hunted there for almost 20+ yrs now
and the deer numbers there are insane , WAY too many, I think its like 1-14 folks hit a deer there with there car, highest deer/car accidents rate in the USA by a LOT.
forest there WHERE I HUNT are still loaded with browse, thick and healthy looking supporting game well
can kill 7 deer a yr if you like, 2 bucks!, maybe more doe in some places too!

SO< again, when folks only see PA< they to me seem to recall the golden yrs, or NEW guys that think the antler restriction is making for BIGGER bucks and are happy for that

ME< I hunt a LOT< normally have for 3 months a yr for about 25+ yrs in many states
I have see over the yrs how places have changed
I don't hunt just ONE area either, and never have, yes I have spots I go to every yr, but I have always like learning new places

and again I have seen places get better OUTSIDE of PA, and places in PA
go south and still are far from becoming better
had a gun store for many yrs
and cannot tell you the horror stories I have heard about the PA GC
not to mention I have some pretty BAD experience's with them myself( and NO I have never been fined /or cited by them, so its not that at all)

I again, back to OP's topic
cannot say I see PA as a GREAT state for hunting, NOT like it was, and far from it in MANY ways
and I don't believe seeing 40-100 deer a day was ever good, nor want that again! or expect it

I would like to see better habitat management, better quality of cover and FOOD for critters ALL YR

easiest way again to get that is TIMBERING, it not only creates cover and food, it puts $$ in there budget, and MAYBE some will benefit wildlife
a WIN WIN
and NO I don't have anything to do with any timber company's either LOL

yes PA still has game, if you work HARD you can find it

BUT with ALL the land the STATE has, IMO< it should be better and NOT so hard to find it!

think about this, WHY do so many folk's complain about MORE game being on private lands, and how private lands are better than public, better odds???
MOST times its due to private lands are managed better and taken care of better
I know mine are
I can see 30-50 deer a day on them, I have food 365/24/7 for them too
I have timbered sections on a rotation to keep cover new and appealing, to have a wide range of tree growth, NOT just mature or new

and yes I have BIG bucks too

it is possible ANY WHERE IN PA

like they say, plant it and they will come
make it appealing and have sustainable food ALL yr and they will stay and strive!

and THEN you will know what GOOD land is like!!
I'm one guy, do all work myself, and pay for it all

a big gov dept like the PA GC, should be able to do more than WHAT they have done!

 

[yobuck]

As for food plots, i doubt the PGC would be spending money creating them where
numerous farms exist. That would be the case in a large portion of the state including sizable portions of the Sullivan Bradford county areas you mention. If youve done the ammount of traveling about you claim, im surprised you arent aware of the ammount of food plots that have been and continue to be created in other areas. The entire Quehanna area and also areas surrounding it have had numerous food plots created.
No question the reason for them and the area chosen for them has been for the
benefit of the ever growing elk herd. But certainly the deer and other wildlife benefit also from them.
For those of us in that region of the state the actions taken by the PGC in reducing deer numbers drasticly starting 40 years ago was a hard thing to understand.
We were told by the PGC at large and loud meetings that the area could no longer support more than about two deer per sq mile. Today their reasons are far more clear than we were told back then. Starting about the same time roads began
to be gated off also making large areas essentially unaccessable to many of the aging population of hunters. Today the majority of dirt roads are gated thruout the entire region.
We now have a clear picture of what were the PGC plans for decades. That being at all cost the elk herd must prosper. The road closings benefit the DCNR also as now
they arent required to provide any maintenance on them at all.
Its about the elk, its all about the elk and it has been for decades.

 

[mrbb]

food plots in AG area's
is a HUGE help to wildlife, reason being food plots remain AFTER the crops are harvested,
as once farmers harvest crops there is slim pickings for wildlife that lived off them!
that was why CO op farms back in the day were so KEY to having a lot of wildlife
CO op farms are far and few these days, due to lack of cooperation between farmers and game commission, too many feuds, and since I know and farm myself
I know why, the state burned the bridges they once had, over the mighty dollar!

and that burnt bridge caused a TON of game to get screwed in the process! which in return hit the hunter, with a lot less land access as well as less game, due to less food for it!
I know a LOT of game wardens personally, many from the glory days, I have log books and journals from the 50's and 60's(early 70's)
that were givin to me by wife's of wardens that have passed away
and the things they did back then as to now, is a night and day difference in actual WORK they did to keep forest healthy, and how they worked with farmers, as to blowing them off now a days!


I do NOT think its all about ELK in PA< NOT by any means
I think folks that live /hunt in elk lands, DO fell this way, due to there effected more by things they do there, BUT most of PA is Elk free by a HUGE margin!

the state GC dos plant foot plots, as of the last 10 yrs or so, BUT the amount per acre they own, is SUPER small percentage !
the NG companys have maybe planted more in the past 5 yrs than the GC has in 10 yrs!

FOOD plots are NOT a sure key to wildlife return or health
BUT it helps forest recover a LOT more, by giving them something else to eat while they new growth takes off!

it helps provide BETTER food after crops go too!

DEER by nature are NOT crop eaters, that is something they advanced into to survive and thrive in many places however
but a deer is a Browsing eating machine , under NORMAL healthy forest conditions!
but when lack of GOOD browse is abundant, they adapted to eating crops to survive
and the food plot company marketed in on this and made many folks rich in the process, and its CHANGED the way a LARGE portion of hunters hunt now too!

I cannot tell you how many GC meetings I have attended over the yrs, but a LOT
and they all sucked with passing the buck about more things than you can shake a stick at
and they never say they made a mistake, or what REAL plans are any where, unless looking to get on TV for some GOOD the local news crew can brag up on them!!


controlled burns, another OLD tool they USED to do a LOT of
they could do, now and improve habitat again!

but there is NO mistaken in the pro's of timbering

and they own a LOT of acres of mature standing timber??

 

[thekyrifleman]

Last season I completed my 62nd consecutive year of hunting in PA. Actually, 65 years if I count the pre legal years on my granddads farm!! Squirrels and rabbits were a given. Limits in the early season and then second season were a given. A reasonable number of grouse. Then the bounties were lifted, foxes were suddenly everywhere... Deer in SW area were scarce, in Washington and Greene counties, virtually non existent. On the farms, pheasants were like lemmings going over a cliff. I can remember seeing hundreds upon hundreds in cornfields feeding, then the PGC began their stocking programs......I haven't killed one in 30 years. I refuse to support the put and take no tailed chickens that are released today. Deer began to show up in SW PA in the 70's and then the population exploded. Then several years back, blue tongue showed up and the population was decimated, in addition to that ridiculous antler restriction program.....Yea, I am older now, eyes not as sharp, but I can still hit a running deer at at 100 yds with the best of them. In all my years I only killed two spikes, and that was on purpose. We decided to take them out of the gene pool!

Food plots on game lands are gone, mowing is non existent, that **** multi flora rose that was planted and now is 30 feet high and so thick that no sane person would ask his dog to try and go through it is choking out almost all the other cover. Coyotes everywhere...yea, maybe some migration from Canada, whatever, but the PGC refuted claimed sightings, until one was killed in Greene county, a female WITH A PGC COLLAR around its neck!!!!! Purpose was to reduce the deer population by fawn predation!!

I guess I could go on for days...now living in FL since retirement, make the trek back every year essentially for deer and bear, to hunt with family and long time friends. No rabbits, no birds, no squirrels, turkeys supposedly declining......separate license fee for almost everything, regulations changing like the weather.......my first license cost $3.00 and I could hunt everything except does...that fee was a buck I think and there was plenty of small game to hunt. How many orange coats do you see in the fields today during small game season??....IMHO....the PGC is doing way too much micromanaging, the input and the influence of the "Commissioners" who are elected and pay way too much attention to getting reelected should be eliminated. Let the professional game biologists do their jobs and make responsible decisions like they are trained to do. So is the cost to hunt in PA a good value, depends on your perspective I guess......just sayin'.....

 

[yobuck]

Last season I completed my 62nd consecutive year of hunting in PA. Actually, 65 years if I count the pre legal years on my granddads farm!! Squirrels and rabbits were a given. Limits in the early season and then second season were a given. A reasonable number of grouse. Then the bounties were lifted, foxes were suddenly everywhere... Deer in SW area were scarce, in Washington and Greene counties, virtually non existent. On the farms, pheasants were like lemmings going over a cliff. I can remember seeing hundreds upon hundreds in cornfields feeding, then the PGC began their stocking programs......I haven't killed one in 30 years. I refuse to support the put and take no tailed chickens that are released today. Deer began to show up in SW PA in the 70's and then the population exploded. Then several years back, blue tongue showed up and the population was decimated, in addition to that ridiculous antler restriction program.....Yea, I am older now, eyes not as sharp, but I can still hit a running deer at at 100 yds with the best of them. In all my years I only killed two spikes, and that was on purpose. We decided to take them out of the gene pool!

Food plots on game lands are gone, mowing is non existent, that **** multi flora rose that was planted and now is 30 feet high and so thick that no sane person would ask his dog to try and go through it is choking out almost all the other cover. Coyotes everywhere...yea, maybe some migration from Canada, whatever, but the PGC refuted claimed sightings, until one was killed in Greene county, a female WITH A PGC COLLAR around its neck!!!!! Purpose was to reduce the deer population by fawn predation!!

I guess I could go on for days...now living in FL since retirement, make the trek back every year essentially for deer and bear, to hunt with family and long time friends. No rabbits, no birds, no squirrels, turkeys supposedly declining......separate license fee for almost everything, regulations changing like the weather.......my first license cost $3.00 and I could hunt everything except does...that fee was a buck I think and there was plenty of small game to hunt. How many orange coats do you see in the fields today during small game season??....IMHO....the PGC is doing way too much micromanaging, the input and the influence of the "Commissioners" who are elected and pay way too much attention to getting reelected should be eliminated. Let the professional game biologists do their jobs and make responsible decisions like they are trained to do. So is the cost to hunt in PA a good value, depends on your perspective I guess......just sayin'.....

Its amasing how people of about the same age and years of experience can see
things so differently. First off the (Commissioners) arent elected to that position,
their appointed by the governor. They in reality make no decisions regarding
managment policies. When their term expires the position is then given to the next worthy person who was loyal to the party of the governor who appointed
them. As for bioligist, they are involved in the decision making. DR. Gary Ault for
example was well known for saving the bear population. Why his expertise wasent utilized in saving the pheasants which needed saving as opposed to the
bears which didnt, is anybodys guess.

 

[thekyrifleman]

Hey Yobuck,

+1 on the age, experience and different points of view!!. Thanks for the correction on the commissioners, I knew that, but in the passion of my discourse(wow) my big word for the day, I simply forgot. Agreed on the Ault statement....I always thought it was a revenue(publicity) stunt. Anyways just my opinion. I was born in PA, lived 60 plus years there, it is my home, was my home, and will always be my home!!! I will continue to make the trek every year until the good Lord says no more!!! BTW, I see you are in e central FL. My wife and I lived in Frostproof for several years while we were RVing, bought a home and moved to Port St Lucie about 5 years ago. We ride our motorcycles through central FL a lot because of the scenery and lack of traffic....except in snow bird season!!! If you are an imbiber, would love to buy you a beer and continue the discussion. If not, then Pepsi or whatever your favorite drink is!! Bear hunting is near Marienville, and now deer hunting is close to home....SW Washington County...

 

[mrbb]

so if I am reading this right a lot of us here don't think PA is what it once was, or that GC< has done a great job running it

However, as for Dr Gary Alt, I think what many are missing on him is, he was NOT a bear biologist when he started working at the GC, he was a warden, that was it!
it was his love of bears that sent him the direction he when in, and he became the worlds most known bear biologist due to all the steps he took and they all were not job related or paid for
he wanted to find out what made bears tick , and he did all the studies he did around the globe on bears , to find out. What he learned was info used world wide
THE PA GC should have had someone doing the same job he did on bears on deer, , it should never have been HIM that took on the deer deal, he was rather forced into it, and he was left out hang out and get blamed for so many things he didn't cause, and the GC in the end, didn't even take care of the guy that made them famous for its bears
(PA has the heaviest beats in the world on average, something ONLY discovered thru ALt!)
Plus the Fame Dr Alt got, also gave the GC a LOT of pat's on the back for his hard work, which again I feel they do all too often, try taking credit for others work!


a Game dept, should have had an expert working on staff on all species in PA, or at least one that did a few at a time, and should have all the more so hired one as certain species were going south in numbers, as well as habitat!

as pheasants was a total failure on there part
they blamed farmers, then chemicals, and then habitat

and never once said WE screwed up!!

and we all know there are NO farmers in places like ND/SD and such?? LOL
and well, farmers there used same chemicals as did farmers around here??
so, Habitat?? HUMM!!
well, since they can control a LARGE part of that, (AKA GAME LANDS)
if habitat was failing, shouldn't they have stepped up and fixed it??
or the habitat that they controlled???

pen raised birds didn't do that, not even close!! and didn't even have anything to do with habitat, farming or chemicals?? which they blamed!!??


NO< Pa is a good state, due to amounts of land and game SOME places have
but its far from what it once was!!

those of us old enough know this, WAY better than the newer generations that think Antler restriction was a fix all for our deer!

Might take some heat for saying this, but IMO< one of PA"s biggest issue's is cheaters
having had a gun shop, being a farmer and working in a butcher shop, and well, hearing story after story
its almost as if cheating is a RIGHT to fat too many residents

if its brown its down, was a rule too many guys lived by, and still in many area's I go
folks are proud about there kills in season or not, they don't care!

they were raised that way
I will say, many more Trophy hunters now, newer generations DON"T Seem this way as much

I see this more in locals, and NOT the hunters that travel to hunting camps

too many locals seem to think they live there, so its THERE DEER! to do as they please

some day I hope there are a lot less cheaters in PA, but where I'm from??
its not happening any time soon

and YES I have TRIED to turn in many over the yrs, that's a whole nother issue with the GC I have there!

 

[Waynzee]

I have just read most of what you fella's have posted here and wow! It's just about the same here in N.E. PA. Some years back, (and yep, I'm an older fella too with 50+ years of hunting under my belt) there was a bridge washed out on the game lands that went to the rifle range. I called the G. C. on it and they told me they didn't have the funds to fix it. "WTH". So I then called our Congressman that was involved with the G.C. and he told me that whenever the G.C. wants more money they play these political games so people will put pressure on the Congressmen and Representatives to give them what they want. I told that Congressman that with all the volunteer help that the G.C. gets, and they do get a lot of help from hunting clubs and college people here, that they could not have the funds to fix that bridge. B.S.. Oh, I didn't mention the bridge was only about 30 feet long and the G.C. told the Congressman it would cost $350,000 to fix. Yep, I'll fix it for 1/2 that price and still make a bundle of money. Well anyway that's my 2 cents worth and the bridge did get fixed after a bunch of locals kept calling the G.C.. As far as hunting goes I agree with you fella's it's just not what it used to be.