Thanks MR. I would agree, he is a bit old school... probably why he is so good at some of the builds I've had him do for me. Thank you for the information, makes sense to me. I'll have to make a decision 1 vs. the 2 piece and go with it. Regardless, back to what elevation base I should be looking at? Zero or 20MOA for a 270wsm hunting rig shooting out to maybe 800 yards with 1" tube glass. Thanks!
Better Scope Options than Dovetail Rings...?
- Thread starter Full Curl
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sable tireur
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Full Curl,
One thing to consider regarding M700 actions, rails and rings:
Often the factory drilled and tapped scope mounting holes are a touch out of alignment. This is something your gunsmith should check before committing to a new base, angled or not. If he finds that the holes are out of alignment, then I suggest moving to the next size hole and threads, #8-32. These are slightly larger in diameter than the factory holes so the new holes can be done correctly while cleaning up the out of alignment factory holes.
Another point to check is the alignment of the front ring with the rear ring. While we know they are not on the same plane, sometimes they are slightly different even with the correct height adjustment on the rear ring. This will put a slight bow in the rail if using a 1-piece rail and put stress on the scope tube with either this or the 2-piece mounts.
I use 1-piece rails with a built-in 20 MOA nearly all the time because of the ranges I build for and the simplicity of the system. Given your potential for 800 yards, I think this is a no-brainer.
Here is a brief visual summary of mounting solutions used by the top PRS shooters:
I have used and will continue to use, any of the top 6 makers in this list. I have a definite leaning towards the Spuhr mounts but only if the budget and weight allow. They are expensive and they can have significant weight if you don't allow for it. But once you use them, it's hard to go back to the others.
Regards.
One thing to consider regarding M700 actions, rails and rings:
Often the factory drilled and tapped scope mounting holes are a touch out of alignment. This is something your gunsmith should check before committing to a new base, angled or not. If he finds that the holes are out of alignment, then I suggest moving to the next size hole and threads, #8-32. These are slightly larger in diameter than the factory holes so the new holes can be done correctly while cleaning up the out of alignment factory holes.
Another point to check is the alignment of the front ring with the rear ring. While we know they are not on the same plane, sometimes they are slightly different even with the correct height adjustment on the rear ring. This will put a slight bow in the rail if using a 1-piece rail and put stress on the scope tube with either this or the 2-piece mounts.
I use 1-piece rails with a built-in 20 MOA nearly all the time because of the ranges I build for and the simplicity of the system. Given your potential for 800 yards, I think this is a no-brainer.
Here is a brief visual summary of mounting solutions used by the top PRS shooters:
I have used and will continue to use, any of the top 6 makers in this list. I have a definite leaning towards the Spuhr mounts but only if the budget and weight allow. They are expensive and they can have significant weight if you don't allow for it. But once you use them, it's hard to go back to the others.
Regards.
sable tireur
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Yes. It won't hurt your shooting at lesser yardages but it's there if you need it for the longer ranges.
MudRunner2005
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My smith is also old school, but he also experiments a lot wth new tech, and knows what works and what's an internet gimmick. I'm also a bit old school (despite my age), but when it comes to precision rifles and LR shooting and hunting, scope and mount technology has come a long way, even in the last 10-15 years. I still love to carry my 106 year old technology 1911 (the gun isn't that old, but the 1911 design itself is), and still trust my life to it. I also have newer tech like Glock and H&K's, and a Shield .45, but I still love and respect the old school technology that helped continue to win our freedoms and independence.
I digress... Like I said, nothing wrong with being old school when it comes to smithing on precision rifles, but when it comes to using/shooting precision rifles, you have to stay on top of your bullet/powder/brass and reloading technology, and your rifle/scope/mount technology.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Yep, I agree. Go with the 20MOA.
FearNoWind
Well-Known Member
I am hesitant to report that any gunsmith is "flat-wrong" but, in this case, I totally agree with MudRunner. I can't speak to how much strength the solid mounts add to the equation but scope/ring alignment is far more accurate with a one piece mount (picatinny) regardless of which rings you select.
I'm going to recommend you try NF rings:
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/929614/nightforce-30mm-standard-duty-picatinny-style-rings-matte?cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories-_-Nightforce-_-929614&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwNmHmvuW1QIViYF-Ch3W8As8EAQYASABEgKsU_D_BwE
on that properly bedded one piece rail. They're easy to install and remove with a single screwdriver type socket wrench (when your torque wrench isn't handy).
Thanks for all the replies. My smith is definitely a little old school and probably doesn't stay up with all the current technologies as much as he could... hence, what the reason was for me starting this thread. He doesn't do it fulltime anymore, semi-retired now, and just has kept a handful of customers who he'll still do work for. He still does some of the best bedding and barrel work I've personally seen so I guess I can live with the "old school" and use this great forum to try to stay as up to date as I can on current stuff. It'll be interesting to see what he says when I show up with my new picatinny rail and precision rings. Thanks again for all the feedback and recommendations.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
He sounds like my smith... My smith if you start a sentence with "I saw on YouTube..." or "I read on the internet..." and he doesn't know you, he'll tell you to GTFO of his shop, and hand you back your stuff. I wouldn't believe it, but I've seen it with my own 2 eyes. Hahaha! He's a crotchety old guy, but he knows his stuff, and once he knows you, you're good to go with him doing work for you. He's also not a full-time smith, and does it on the side, and only works by word-of-mouth, and unless you come highly recommended, he won't do work for you. He's built 6 or 7 for me now, so I'm good to go. He knows his stuff.
Bullet bumper
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I do things a bit differently on my long range rifle . I have a flat picatinny rail and a detachable ARMS MSP variable eye relief lever scope mount with 20 MOA in the mount rail not the Picatinny rail.
This allows the long range scope to come off leaving a flat picatinny rail to mount other stuff like low power scope or Night vision that would not work well with a 20 moa slope . Check out Mounting solutions plus http://www.mountsplus.com/AR-15_Accessories/AR-15_Scope_Mounts/scope-rings-mounts.html
If you do go ARMS lever mount make sure your picatinny rail is a mill spec rail or the cam levers may not fit firm . Cam levers return to zero better than dovetail claws but they must fit the rail right . Lube the lever cams well with moly grease before trying to close the levers . Keep them lubed well to reduce galling on the Picatinny rail .
Don't force the levers with any tool if they will not close with finger / thumb pressure the rail is too wide . If they close too easy the rail is too narrow .
You may be able to buy them with a correct fitting rail .
This allows the long range scope to come off leaving a flat picatinny rail to mount other stuff like low power scope or Night vision that would not work well with a 20 moa slope . Check out Mounting solutions plus http://www.mountsplus.com/AR-15_Accessories/AR-15_Scope_Mounts/scope-rings-mounts.html
If you do go ARMS lever mount make sure your picatinny rail is a mill spec rail or the cam levers may not fit firm . Cam levers return to zero better than dovetail claws but they must fit the rail right . Lube the lever cams well with moly grease before trying to close the levers . Keep them lubed well to reduce galling on the Picatinny rail .
Don't force the levers with any tool if they will not close with finger / thumb pressure the rail is too wide . If they close too easy the rail is too narrow .
You may be able to buy them with a correct fitting rail .
I've since got set up with a pair of Seekins rings and an EGW rail base thanks to all the great feedback I received on here. I was watching some of Mark Thompson's Long Range Shooting School videos and couldn't help but noticed that he uses the dual dovetail mounts. Go to about the 2:17 minute mark...
Interesting to see that some well known and accomplished long range guys still like this setup.
Interesting to see that some well known and accomplished long range guys still like this setup.
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