.223 to a Mile?

Chazwood 223

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Short while back I read the artical by Jerry Teo re shooting a mile with a .223 . The cost of shooting especially in the UK isn't cheap so when someone mentions using smaller bullets to shoot further instead of the bigger ones I tend to take note.

The artical is a few years old now but was hoping I could posisbly get some help with the following

I have a Remi 700 in .223 26" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. Most accurate rifle in the box . Shoots sub MOA at anything to 300 Yards using 55, 69 & 77 Grn Sierras, when I've shot 600 I hav'nt been disapointed either . Don't need a mile at this stage but was wondering if anybody could help out at all ( preferably without any major changes ) to get me to 1000?

One of the most interesting things mentioned in his artical ( apart from not busting the bank to build the rifle ) was the part about the bullet going subsonic and that its not as bad as possibly most people thought. I use 'Quick load initially to get the basic info then JMB Balistics to plot a drop chart, only round that I could see that would make the trip ( based on original, keeping supersonic) was a Hornady Amax 75 Grn, but I can't them to shoot.

I'm fairly new to all this so applogies if my approach seems some what 'Odd', however any help would be apprecaited

Chaz
 
Short while back I read the artical by Jerry Teo re shooting a mile with a .223 . The cost of shooting especially in the UK isn't cheap so when someone mentions using smaller bullets to shoot further instead of the bigger ones I tend to take note.

The artical is a few years old now but was hoping I could posisbly get some help with the following

I have a Remi 700 in .223 26" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. Most accurate rifle in the box . Shoots sub MOA at anything to 300 Yards using 55, 69 & 77 Grn Sierras, when I've shot 600 I hav'nt been disapointed either . Don't need a mile at this stage but was wondering if anybody could help out at all ( preferably without any major changes ) to get me to 1000?

One of the most interesting things mentioned in his artical ( apart from not busting the bank to build the rifle ) was the part about the bullet going subsonic and that its not as bad as possibly most people thought. I use 'Quick load initially to get the basic info then JMB Balistics to plot a drop chart, only round that I could see that would make the trip ( based on original, keeping supersonic) was a Hornady Amax 75 Grn, but I can't them to shoot.

I'm fairly new to all this so applogies if my approach seems some what 'Odd', however any help would be apprecaited

Chaz
A1000 yards is way short of a mile !
Have you tried the nosler 77 RDF OR the hornady 73 and 75 gr ELD match ?
 
Short while back I read the artical by Jerry Teo re shooting a mile with a .223 . The cost of shooting especially in the UK isn't cheap so when someone mentions using smaller bullets to shoot further instead of the bigger ones I tend to take note.

The artical is a few years old now but was hoping I could posisbly get some help with the following

I have a Remi 700 in .223 26" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. Most accurate rifle in the box . Shoots sub MOA at anything to 300 Yards using 55, 69 & 77 Grn Sierras, when I've shot 600 I hav'nt been disapointed either . Don't need a mile at this stage but was wondering if anybody could help out at all ( preferably without any major changes ) to get me to 1000?

One of the most interesting things mentioned in his artical ( apart from not busting the bank to build the rifle ) was the part about the bullet going subsonic and that its not as bad as possibly most people thought. I use 'Quick load initially to get the basic info then JMB Balistics to plot a drop chart, only round that I could see that would make the trip ( based on original, keeping supersonic) was a Hornady Amax 75 Grn, but I can't them to shoot.

I'm fairly new to all this so applogies if my approach seems some what 'Odd', however any help would be apprecaited

Chaz

I shoot to 1000 all the time with a .223. Easy as pie.

Benchmark or BL-C(2) work great. Other powders work well but I've gotten best performance with these. Loaded to touch the lands. I got up around 24grains of either. Hornady 75gn BTHP (stabilized well at 9 twist) or 73gn ELD-M or Berger 70gn VLD. CCI 5.56 spec primer or CCI Magnum SRP. This is all on commercial brass. Don't like .mil brass for this.

With that on a 24 or 26" barrel I'm getting 2950fps. It'll make it to 1000 METERS going transonic at sea level. At 1000ft ASL you'll get to 1000 METERS supersonic. That's 1100yrds so you should have no trouble at all at 1000yrds.

Good Luck. If you want more specific details PM me.

As far as getting to a mile, you end up needing 200MOA+ of up. Sport optics generally can't do that even with a 20MOA base. I had to use 40MOA in the rings, 20MOA in the base and over 100MOA in my turrets plus all 10mils of my reticle when I tried it and I still couldn't get them there. But it's pointless anyway... there's no getting there supersonic and you'll see all kinds of nasty after 1200yrds in my experience. The bullets are coming in so steep that any hit is basically luck just that far and that's if the bullets don't destabilize right about there. By the time you get to 1760yrds you're just lobbing metal downrange half blindly and you can't even see hits in the dust because they lack energy. Hits are going to be luck if anything and almost undetectable when you do. Yeah, you can point a rifle up in the sky and make them bullets go real far but you will not be able to determine where they'll ahead of time.
 
I have had better luck with W-748 over BLC-2 i also use commercial brass over that crimped primer stuff... Have a witnessed 650 yard cotton tail kill and 604 yard P-Dog kill with my savage .223,,,, 1.75 " five shot groups @ 500 yards.
 
A1000 yards is way short of a mile !
Have you tried the nosler 77 RDF OR the hornady 73 and 75 gr ELD match ?
1000 is a bit short, sorry had to start somewhere, to be honest hav'nt had much luck with the 308 at that distnace (Story for another day!) , probably says summat, but thanks for help.
 
I shoot to 1000 all the time with a .223. Easy as pie.

Benchmark or BL-C(2) work great. Other powders work well but I've gotten best performance with these. Loaded to touch the lands. I got up around 24grains of either. Hornady 75gn BTHP (stabilized well at 9 twist) or 73gn ELD-M or Berger 70gn VLD. CCI 5.56 spec primer or CCI Magnum SRP. This is all on commercial brass. Don't like .mil brass for this.

With that on a 24 or 26" barrel I'm getting 2950fps. It'll make it to 1000 METERS going transonic at sea level. At 1000ft ASL you'll get to 1000 METERS supersonic. That's 1100yrds so you should have no trouble at all at 1000yrds.

Good Luck. If you want more specific details PM me.

As far as getting to a mile, you end up needing 200MOA+ of up. Sport optics generally can't do that even with a 20MOA base. I had to use 40MOA in the rings, 20MOA in the base and over 100MOA in my turrets plus all 10mils of my reticle when I tried it and I still couldn't get them there. But it's pointless anyway... there's no getting there supersonic and you'll see all kinds of nasty after 1200yrds in my experience. The bullets are coming in so steep that any hit is basically luck just that far and that's if the bullets don't destabilize right about there. By the time you get to 1760yrds you're just lobbing metal downrange half blindly and you can't even see hits in the dust because they lack energy. Hits are going to be luck if anything and almost undetectable when you do. Yeah, you can point a rifle up in the sky and make them bullets go real far but you will not be able to determine where they'll ahead of time.
Thanks for that , interesting about the Hornadys, never managed to get them to shoot at all, well not at short range anyway. That said I've not actually tried them touching the lands. Will have a go the weekend , weather permiting!

Question though , If the Amax's don't group ( and we're talking 3-4" at 100 Yrds ) does that generally mean they won't at the 1000?.

Because of the poor results close up, I've never actually bothered going any further.
 
Short while back I read the artical by Jerry Teo re shooting a mile with a .223 . The cost of shooting especially in the UK isn't cheap so when someone mentions using smaller bullets to shoot further instead of the bigger ones I tend to take note.

The artical is a few years old now but was hoping I could posisbly get some help with the following

I have a Remi 700 in .223 26" barrel with 1 in 9 twist. Most accurate rifle in the box . Shoots sub MOA at anything to 300 Yards using 55, 69 & 77 Grn Sierras, when I've shot 600 I hav'nt been disapointed either . Don't need a mile at this stage but was wondering if anybody could help out at all ( preferably without any major changes ) to get me to 1000?

One of the most interesting things mentioned in his artical ( apart from not busting the bank to build the rifle ) was the part about the bullet going subsonic and that its not as bad as possibly most people thought. I use 'Quick load initially to get the basic info then JMB Balistics to plot a drop chart, only round that I could see that would make the trip ( based on original, keeping supersonic) was a Hornady Amax 75 Grn, but I can't them to shoot.

I'm fairly new to all this so applogies if my approach seems some what 'Odd', however any help would be apprecaited

Chaz
Forget those heavy bullets stay with 73 grain eld match down to the 70 gr nosler and 68 and 69 match bullets ,,, I have had excellent results with 52 gr Amax and W-748 powder but pretty sure that 52 grain will never make 1000 yards..... the only reason i dont do Sierras is they are far to proud of there bullets and costs are so much more !
 
Thanks for that , interesting about the Hornadys, never managed to get them to shoot at all, well not at short range anyway. That said I've not actually tried them touching the lands. Will have a go the weekend , weather permiting!

Question though , If the Amax's don't group ( and we're talking 3-4" at 100 Yrds ) does that generally mean they won't at the 1000?.

Because of the poor results close up, I've never actually bothered going any further.

If it groups poorly at 100 it's not going to settle down down the line.

There is some (likely apocryphal) lore on the web about bullets "going to sleep" downrange which is something I do not take exceedingly seriously. The effect may have been observed but the cause has not been sufficiently explained that I've seen nor has the effect been deliberately reproduced that I can find. Thus the reason for my skepticism. Right now it's just lore.

If they're not grouping well then change seating depth and try again. Then change powders and try again. If that doesn't help, change primers and try again. Little things can fix big things.

I jam my bullets into the lands pretty hard for some loads. It helps consistency in a lot of them but it can dramatically raise pressures or turn a good load to a poop load. With bullets seated far out there tends to open a little case capacity behind it so if you don't cram that newly empty space full of powder things shouldn't get too bad pressure wise.
 
What kind of accuracy are you guys getting at 1000 yards or meters with bullets under 80 grains on paper ?
 
Forget those heavy bullets stay with 73 grain eld match down to the 70 gr nosler and 68 and 69 match bullets ,,, I have had excellent results with 52 gr Amax and W-748 powder but pretty sure that 52 grain will never make 1000 yards..... the only reason i dont do Sierras is they are far to proud of there bullets and costs are so much more !

Not to be a jerk but have you any real extreme range experience with .223?

Reason I ask so bruskly is it's not possible to do what OP wants with those medium range bullets you're talking about and I'd hate for him to get confused by incorrect advice.

FWIW 68/69 class bullets from nosler and sierra run BC's around .310 G1 and velocities you get from them are not super high compared to the 70-75gn bullets, around 3050fps. So there's like 100fps velocity advantage but the BC disadvantage is enormous and can't be made up for, even with .22Nosler velocities. The transonic zone for those 68/69 bullets and any bullet with that low of a BC is around 700m (770yrds) given a 3050fps MV and standard air conditions at 500ft above sea level. What you're advising him to do will exactly cause him to fail any attempt because you have him running out of supersonic steam 200-300yrds early of the earliest time that that would be acceptable.

The Berger 70gn VLD runs a .375 G1 BC which will let it get to 900m (~1000yrds) based on a 3000fps MV but not really much further unless it's stupid hot air or very high up so the air thins. 75gn A-Max runs a wicked high .432 G1 BC which means it'll cross into transonic around 1000-1100m (1100-1200 yrds) from 2950fps MV and the Hornady BTHP 75gn does it at 1000-1100 with a .395 G1 BC and a 2950FPS MV. The 73gn ELD-M can be driven easily to 2950fps in my experience and has a .398 G1 BC which puts them right between a A-Max and a Berger VLD, meaning you'll tag transonic zone around 1100-1200yrds. Hornady's own BTHP 69gn match bullet would run out of supersonic steam right before 1000yrds.

68/69 class are great NRA High Power competition bullets. They'll go across the course and are inexpensive but after 600m they're the wrong bullet.
 
What kind of accuracy are you guys getting at 1000 yards or meters with bullets under 80 grains on paper ?

OOPS... corrected. Thought that said 100m

These are from my match PRS rifles. You'll not likely see this with a out of the box rifle. Benchrest level custom rifles will be able to do better.

For zero's: My 75gn Hornady HPBT would print 1/2MOA. I shoot almost exclusively from 200m onward so I don't have 100m group sizes from recent history. Berger 70gn VLD shoot .5-.75moa with one group that was .1MOA at 300m. Hornady ELD-M's run .3-.5moa. 55gn M193 run about 1.25MOA.

At 1000yrds, things are responding to wind very erratically. I get 1MOA pretty easily but the slightest fail in calling wind and I'm off by 2MOA or more. .223 at long range are not for beginners. It's like shooting 15yrd trap with a .410. Serious disadvantage.
 
Not to be a jerk but have you any real extreme range experience with .223?

Reason I ask so bruskly is it's not possible to do what OP wants with those medium range bullets you're talking about and I'd hate for him to get confused by incorrect advice.

FWIW 68/69 class bullets from nosler and sierra run BC's around .310 G1 and velocities you get from them are not super high compared to the 70-75gn bullets, around 3050fps. So there's like 100fps velocity advantage but the BC disadvantage is enormous and can't be made up for, even with .22Nosler velocities. The transonic zone for those 68/69 bullets and any bullet with that low of a BC is around 700m (770yrds) given a 3050fps MV and standard air conditions at 500ft above sea level. What you're advising him to do will exactly cause him to fail any attempt because you have him running out of supersonic steam 200-300yrds early of the earliest time that that would be acceptable.

The Berger 70gn VLD runs a .375 G1 BC which will let it get to 900m (~1000yrds) based on a 3000fps MV but not really much further unless it's stupid hot air or very high up so the air thins. 75gn A-Max runs a wicked high .432 G1 BC which means it'll cross into transonic around 1000-1100m (1100-1200 yrds) from 2950fps MV and the Hornady BTHP 75gn does it at 1000-1100 with a .395 G1 BC and a 2950FPS MV. The 73gn ELD-M can be driven easily to 2950fps in my experience and has a .398 G1 BC which puts them right between a A-Max and a Berger VLD, meaning you'll tag transonic zone around 1100-1200yrds. Hornady's own BTHP 69gn match bullet would run out of supersonic steam right before 1000yrds.

68/69 class are great NRA High Power competition bullets. They'll go across the course and are inexpensive but after 600m they're the wrong bullet.
1-9 twist for 80 grain VLDs, LMFAO my 1-9 26" barely stabilizes the 75 a max 77 and 80s forget it... and for some reason it hated the new 73 eld match i ended up selling 400 of these at a huge loss....Just my gun , just my experience..... I have often wished i had a 1-8 twist. There are far better choices for 1000 yards than .223... i understand why OP wants .223 to work out,,, its a butt load cheaper to load and shoot....And prob more fun to shoot...
 
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1-9 twist for 80 grain VLDs, LMFAO my 1-9 26" barely stabilizes the 75 a max 77 and 80s forget it... and for some reason it hated the new 73 eld match i ended up selling 400 of these at a huge loss....Just my gun , just my experience..... I have often wished i had a 1-8 twist. There are far better choices for 1000 yards than .223... i understand why OP wants .223 to work out,,, its a butt load cheaper to load and shoot....And prob more fun to shoot...

80's won't play on a 9 twist, period. So far 77's haven't ever shown me that they'd work in any 9twist. I'd be surprised if the 80's got 25m point first honestly. I've gotten 75gn BTHPs (untipped 75's) but not 77gn's to behave in my 24" 9twist. From my 26" 7 twist there are no real limits except the 90gn monsters. Really have to push heavies hard though if you want anything over a 70gn to behave from a 9twist.

73ELD's have been pretty epic for me but yeah, diff gun, diff result. I'm pretty sure I can get 3050 from the 73's.

Wish you still had those ELD's. I'd have bought them for your cost + shipping. I love them and so do my .223 rifles.

FWIW, I'm using a 24" Mossberg factory 9:1 barrel (about to retire this pipe, it's pretty shot out) a 16" Del-Ton 9:1 barrel and a 26" Black Hole Weaponry 7 twist barrel.
 
Hi

Truth is I hav'nt tried 1000 yet with a .223, done a reasonable amount with a 308 but in all honesty not been really happy with the results . Never been completely comfortable with the 308 set up so was just about the jump ship and get a 6.5 Creedmoor ( which seems all the rage at the moment), then, happened to read the Tony Teo artical on 223 to a mile which got me thinking. Already have one fo those, . . . so we'll try that first!
 
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